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Stroke Order

Posted: July 12th, 2008 1:37 am
by retropunk
markystar-san said,
everyone here agrees with you. but at the moment, it’s technologically impossible for us to do it :cry:
but when we can, i’m sure we will!


You posted this in the LI #83 lesson. I moved this conversation here so it doesn't hijack the lesson.

I'm not sure why it's technologically impossible. Even in PDF format only, it's possible to show this using step-by-step (i.e., different images for each stroke.) You won't be able to do animation since you'll want to print this out, but even then it's rather easy to do with grey-to-black progression in the stroke.

However, it would be a large task to do 2000 kanji. :shock:

Posted: July 12th, 2008 2:08 am
by Belton
I believe it's technologically difficult for JapanesePod101 rather being technologically impossible per-se.

Probably because of the way they generate their PDFs; it's probably automated. To get into stroke order diagrams they would have to hand make each PDF, needing more man hours than they have available.

In the meantime.
For DIY solutions.

there is this stroke order font.

and PNG stroke order diagrams from Kanji Café (used by a number of dictionary readers and sites)
Licensing these diagrams would probably be the way forward for Jpod.
Then the problem would be to write a script to match the kanji and insert the correct diagram when generating the pdf. Easier said than done.

or look the kanji up in a dictionary reader. JEDict on the Mac uses Kanji Café's SOD pictures.

(while we're at it is there *any* way to make the Japanese text in pdfs searchable or copyable...)

Posted: July 12th, 2008 7:01 am
by Psy
Even though I'm pretty comfortable with kanji, that font is wicked awesome. I think I'll set Anki to use it.

Posted: July 13th, 2008 5:36 am
by retropunk
Belton wrote:Probably because of the way they generate their PDFs; it's probably automated. To get into stroke order diagrams they would have to hand make each PDF, needing more man hours than they have available.


The adage that "it takes too many man hours" is really a bad excuse - especially for copy-and-paste exercises. However, as I stated, it would take a lot of time to do stroke order for all of the kanji they have in their database. Each set of images would take about 20 minutes depending on how many strokes, patience, and crowding.

I never noticed I placed this in the wrong section. Maybe it should be moved.

Posted: July 13th, 2008 8:29 am
by Belton
retropunk wrote:
The adage that "it takes too many man hours" is really a bad excuse


I didn't say too many, I said more than they had available.

but I'm only guessing, I'm just a user on this site, but in the end everything comes down to the time and effort needed to do it.

That said I know the quite small team that make jPod101 work very hard and put in long hours. I've been to their offices so I've seen it first hand. I'm amazed they can produce so much material to schedule really.

Somewhere along the way they prioritise what they can do and at the moment for whatever reasons a redesign of the Kanji pdf isn't part of it. Using your estimate of 20mins per character a single pdf might take half a day. (maybe Marky will comment further but I think whenever the issue arises as it does from time to time the answer is more or less "we'd like to but can't right now")

If you go looking yourself you can find the information you want elsewhere, be it in a book, learners dictionary, or various kanji websites.
Jim Breens WWWJDIC has animated stroke order diagrams from kanji café and also Jack Halperns dictionaries.
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html

To be honest once you remember the rules for stroke order kanji are fairly regular in the way they are written. ( 右 and 左 come to mind however. )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_order#Basic_rules
and you'll find you'll check stroke order less and less as you go along.

Posted: July 13th, 2008 8:58 am
by retropunk
Belton wrote:If you go looking yourself you can find the information you want elsewhere, be it in a book, learners dictionary, or various kanji websites.


I already know of the numerous sources which can be provide the stroke order. The stroke-order request was requested by another person. I'm just curious why its technologically difficult/impossible to add them.

Posted: July 23rd, 2008 7:40 pm
by markystar
beltonさん hit the nail on the head.

as is often the case, there are many thing we'd love to do, but simply can't at the moment. the amount of work that actually goes into a single lesson (including video vocab, lesson notes, kanji close up, vocab, dialog track, review track, combo tracks & bonus tracks, etc) is actually quite staggering. i'm not even mentioning preparation, story writing, etc.

i'm right there with anyone who says "we want stroke order."
as a student of japanese myself, believe i want it. i've asked around about since i came onboard. and i'll continue to do so. :D

but at the moment the man power is just not there. as for being technically difficult/impossible, with the current pdf generation, that font wouldn't be visible. you've seen the font used for roman letters in the pdfs, right?
that definitely wasn't our first choice. :lol:
if we wanted the japanese font to display correctly, we had to go with that one.

again, this is just how things are now. and we definitely listen to what people say. the guys doing the tech side of the site are absolutely amazing (and overworked). whether it's in the form of a pdf or video or something else, i'm sure eventually those guys will be able to pull it off.

Posted: August 8th, 2008 3:17 pm
by kotowaza
An aside note.
There are errors in video kana stroke oder. I did not check everything, but ン イ are shown wrongly in the videos.
In the hiragana chart instead of み you have ふ.
I think it's technically possible to change it, or to remove the wrong files at least.

Posted: August 8th, 2008 4:28 pm
by kotowaza
I found more mistakes: カ タ チ. I wonder how many I will find next time.
I've got a funny feeling.

Posted: August 8th, 2008 5:30 pm
by kotowaza
Another mistake: せ. Seven so far.

Posted: December 20th, 2008 3:31 am
by AJCole
I've found a lot of mistakes in the PDF Files as well, but I just ignore them because I know what they should be, or I call one of my Japanese mentors to see why they did it a certain way.
It would be beneficial for those completely new to the language not to have the mistakes, but it would take some time to proof read every pdf file. Weak argument, yes, but I'd rather be on the receiving end of the lessons.