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Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Itching to practice your Japanese? Use romaji, kana (hiragana and katakana), and kanji, and try to keep the English at a minimum and have fun!

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jim.schuler
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Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby jim.schuler » July 24th, 2015 10:22 am

Konichiwa

Here I will do violence to the Japanese language. If that is not what the thread title actually says, then consider that a further warning of things to come. I'm not posting the things I have a grasp on, but where I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I will cobble together bits or grammar and vocabulary stolen from across the Internet into terrifying linguistic Frankenstein's Monsters, and share my twisted thought processes here. Why?

Kabe ni atama wo butsukeru no de benkyou shimasu.
(I study by bashing my head into walls.)

It's alive!

I can't help but question this sentence. First, there's the concussion I'm suffering. Second, "no de." I believe the "no" turns "butsukeru" from "bash" to the equivalent of "bashing," nominalizing the phrase. But, I'm not sure if it's true or, if so, even necessary. Of course, the fact that "no de" is "node" ("because") in hiragana doesn't escape my attention, and makes me wonder if there's a connection or if the sentence--even if it is grammatically sound--should best be avoided for something else.

But I carry on without fear, because...

Kowaii ga nara, yatte mimasen.
(If I was afraid, I wouldn't try.)

"Ga" or "wo?" "Ga" or "wo?" I picked up that "ga" is used when describing a state, and "wo" when describing an action. Hopefully "mimasen" is the correct tense.

Still, the statement is not quite inspiring, is it?

Kowaii ga demo, yatte mimasu.
(Even if I was afraid, I would try.)

There. The sentiment is much better. Trying out the "-temo" form of "aru." Except, it doesn't seem to work as I come up with "demo," which is "but." Or, perhaps that is the point. "Even if" and "but" are almost synonyms in English. If this is a real link, it does make "demo" easier to use correctly.

Nihongo, I have abused you enough for today. I am truly sorry.

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby mmmason8967 » July 25th, 2015 7:03 am

I'm not sure, but I think you can only use "kowaii" when you're scared of Kyary Pamyu Pamyu. :wink:

The word you want is kowai. It's an i-adjective and it's interesting because it describes what are two slightly different things in English--"scared" and "scary". You can usually tell which from the context. For instance, sono eiga wa kowai must be "that film is scary" since "that film is scared" doesn't make much sense. An i-adjective acts as its own copula when it's at the end of a phrase or sentence. That is, kowai means "it's scary" or "I'm scared". If you want to be more formal or polite, you'd say kowai desu--but the only thing the desu is doing is making the phrase more polite.

The particle ga always comes after a noun (or a noun phrase). So you can say X ga kowai but you can't say kowai ga X.

The English word "try" is kind of vague and covers a range of meanings. As well as "endeavour" or "make the effort", which is what I think you want to say, it can also mean "check" or "investigate" or "see if I can", which is more like what you've written. Slightly re-wording the English version might give a better starting point to work from. I'd suggest something like this:-

Even if/when I'm scared, I will do my best.

Ganbatte kudasai! :wink:

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby jim.schuler » July 25th, 2015 8:38 am

mmmason8967 wrote:I'm not sure, but I think you can only use "kowaii" when you're scared of Kyary Pamyu Pamyu. :wink:

Ii desu. Imasu yo.
(That's good. I am!)

Would I use something else (I assume "wo" has the same problem), or omit the particle all together because it's an adjective?

Take 3:
Kowai demo, ganbarimasu.

Arigato gozaimasu

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby community.japanese » July 25th, 2015 4:28 pm

マイケルさん、
助詞の「は」の説明はその通りですね。
Your explanation of particle ‘wa’ is perfect.
jim.schuler san,
konnichiwa.
Please note the correct sentences.

Kowakattara, yatte mimasen.
(If I was afraid, I wouldn't try.)
When you put i-adjective in a conditional clause ‘ra’, you have to put ta-form before it.
Kowai → kowakatta

Kowakutemo, yatte mimasu.
(Even if I was afraid, I would try.
When you put i-adjective in a conditional clause ‘mo’, you have to put te-form before it.

Kowakutemo, ganbarimasu.
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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby jim.schuler » July 26th, 2015 3:32 am

Arigato!

Fun and butchery with conditionals. Take 2.

Konban, paatii nara issho ni iku ka.
(Tonight, if there's a party, can we go together?)
Iie. Anata dake dattara wastashi wa hitori de iku.
(No. If it's only you, I'll go by myself.)
Keki wo motte kitemo ka.
(Even if I bring a cake?)
Kudaranakunai de no da. Keki wo taberu to anata wa byouki ni naru.
(Don't be ridiculous. If you eat cake, you will get sick.)
Yakusoku suru keki wo tabenai yo.
(I promise I won't eat the cake!)
Hai. Hai.
(Yes, yes/Sure, fine, whatever)
Tsugi no asa...
(The next morning...)
Nande kimochi totemo waruri da ka.
(Why do I feel so bad?)
Yappari. Keki wo tabereba byouki ni zutto natta.
(I knew it. Eating cake always makes you sick.)

So many things to get wrong. Dokidoki desu!

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby community.japanese » July 27th, 2015 1:13 pm

jim.schuler san,
konnichiwa.
Thank you for the post.
I am wondering if you used plain from on purpose.
However, I use polite from here because I don't know the relationship between the two people.
If you use plain form to person is not close to you, it sounds rude.

You should not use ‘anata’to people who you know their name.
If you call someone ‘anata’, it indicates that the person and you are in relationship.
Or you look down the person or you get angry to the person.

Konban, paatii ga arunara issho ni ikimasen ka.

Iie. (name) san dake nara wastashi wa hitori de ikimasu.

Keki wo motte kitemo hitori de ikimasu ka.

Kudaranai koto wo iwanaide kudasai.
Keki wo taberu to (name) san wa kibun ga waruku narimasu.

Yakusoku shimasu keki wo tabemasen.

Hai. Hai.

Tsugi no asa...

Nande kimochi ga totemo waruri no deshou.

Yappari. Keki wo taberetakara kimochi ga waruku narimashita.

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby jim.schuler » July 27th, 2015 3:40 pm

Arigato, Yuki san.

As I was writing, I realized from the conversation that they would likely be familiar to each other, so used the plain form. And since they were already behaving rudely ("If it's only with you I won't go?" The lesson writers are rubbing off on me...), I left the "anata" in instead of giving them names. In the future I shall avoid it as it's a bad habit to pick up.

Let's call them "Ao" and "Midori."

Lots of things to look at. I was deliberately aggressive in using as few words as possible to see what I could get away with, so I'm not surprised at some of the corrections.

My initial question is when is "byouki" used over "waruri?"

Edit 1:
New word: Kibun. From what I've looked up, "kibun" describes a persistent physical state, while "kimochi" is the emotional state. From that, I think I understand why the first instance of "kimochi" should have been "kibun." Am I correct that the other "kimochi" could also be "kibun?"

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby mmmason8967 » July 28th, 2015 2:40 am

jim.schuler wrote:My initial question is when is "byouki" used over "waruri?"

I don't know the word "waruri" so I'm going to assume it's a typo and should have been warui.

As far as I know, byouki is an illness, the kind of thing you'd see a doctor about, whereas warui is an adjective that means "bad", "gross", etc, and is the kind of thing you'd complain about, as in guai ga warui, "I dont' feel too good". So the short answer is: byouki is more serious than feeling warui.

New word: Kibun. From what I've looked up, "kibun" describes a persistent physical state, while "kimochi" is the emotional state. From that, I think I understand why the first instance of "kimochi" should have been "kibun." Am I correct that the other "kimochi" could also be "kibun?"

I think so: guai ga warui and kibun ga warui seem to be common ways of saying "I feel ill".

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby jim.schuler » July 28th, 2015 3:31 am

So the problem with "byouki ni naru" was not one of grammar so much as degree. If eating cake sent him into diabetic shock, then "byouki ni naru" might be appropriate and his friend would have the ambulance on speed-dial. Or maybe Midori san wa Ao san no choushi ga oogesa ni narimasu. (Midori exaggerated Ao's physical condition).

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby community.japanese » July 28th, 2015 9:20 am

マイケルさん、
どうもありがとうございます。

jim.schuler san,
konnichiwa.
Regarding kimochi and kibun, both sentences should have ‘kibun.’
I am sorry for the previous post.

Byouki ni naru means ‘catch a disease.’
Ao san already got the disease so it doesn’t mean ‘naru (become).’
The situation of ‘boukini naru’ is that a person was good and energetic (didn’t have any symptoms) however, eating cake develops the symptoms first time.
In your case I think‘ao san no byoujou ga warukunaru (Ao’s health condition gets worse.)’is the best.

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby jim.schuler » July 28th, 2015 12:00 pm

Arigato Yuki san.
community.japanese wrote:Byouki ni naru means ‘catch a disease.’
Ao san already got the disease so it doesn’t mean ‘naru (become).’

Something like "catch a" was what I was going for:
- If you eat cake, you will get sick.

How are these?
Getting sick:
- Fuyu ni bisshori na ifuku wo kiru to kaze wo hikimasu.
(If you wear wet clothes in winter, you will catch a cold)
- Nama de dainashi na toriniku wo tabereba byouki ni narimashou.
(If you eat raw and spoiled chicken, you will probably become seriously ill.)

Being/Having been sick:
- Fuyu ni bisshori na ifuku wo kita node kaze wo hikimashita
(Because I wore wet clothes in winter, I caught a cold.)
- Nama de dainashi na toriniku wo tabeta node byouki desu.
(Because I ate raw and spoiled chicken, I am seriously ill.)

I've read the -tara form can be used for conditionals that are entirely in the past:
- Nama de dainashi na toriniku wo tabetara byouki ni narimashita.
(When I ate raw and spoiled chicken, I became seriously ill.)

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby community.japanese » July 29th, 2015 11:02 am

jim.schuler san,
konnichiwa.

‘Fuyu ni bisshori na ifuku wo kiru to kaze wo hikimasu’ is correct.

Regarding - Nama de dainashi na toriniku wo tabereba byouki ni narimashou.
Dainashi means ‘ruin.’
For example, you prepare everything for a party however, your friends are drank and have fight. In this case you can say ‘paathi ga dainashi desu.’
When you are talking about spoiled food, you should say ‘dameni natta food’ or ‘kusatta food’ or ‘waruku nattafood’
It may be a typo however, ‘mashou’ means ‘let’s.’
Therefore, the sentence should be Nama de warukunatta toriniku wo tabereba byouki ni narimasu.
‘Nama de warukunatta toriniku wo tabereba byouki ni narimashita’ is correct.
:)
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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby jim.schuler » July 29th, 2015 12:52 pm

Arigato Yuki san.

I must admit, "mashou" wasn't a typo. I wanted the "probably" there, so maybe it should have been "naru deshou?"

Mae ni* susumimasho.
(Let's keep going)
*Can he be used in the context of this post instead of ni?

Relating to conditionals, I came across shika, donna ni, and ikura. Donna ni and ikura are used with +te mo are apparently both translated to "no matter how much" in English, with the difference between them being that donna ni is always used in a negative construction.

Donna ni kake ga tabetemo kimochi ga waruku narimasen.
(No matter how much cake I eat, I won't feel bad.)

Ikura taisou shitemo futorimasu.
(No matter how much I exercise, I get fat.)

Shika, meanwhile, is pretty much the opposite of mo from what I can tell. While mo means "also," shika means "except for."

Kake shika nannari* ga tabemasu.
(Except for cake, I can eat anything.)
*I'm using nannari wrong, aren't I?

Mo can be used as "even" in the same context.

Kake mo nannari ga tabemasu.
(I can eat anything, even cake.)

I have run into a ga construction here that I don't completely understand, because particles confuse and frighten me. So the above is how I would currently render it, but I suspect the following is more correct:

Tabemono ga kake shika tabemasu.
(I eat food, except for cake)

Tabemono ga kake mo tabemasu.
(I eat food, even cake)

The logic seems to be that X ga Y establishes Y as a member of group X, but is called out for special attention/contrast. I'm also not sure if "all" is needed for this particular construction to really make sense (Arayuru? Is that the right one?) or if it's implied.

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby jim.schuler » August 4th, 2015 8:26 pm

Switching gears.

+te iru is often equated with English "be -ing," but there be dragons in doing so, as +te iru can also be the end state of the verb, instead of its continuance.

Shouji ga shimatte imasu.

This doesn't mean "The shoji is closing," but rather "The shoji is closed." Meanwhile...

Watashi wa shouji wo shimete imasu.

...is, as we'd expect, "I am closing the shouji." Or, at least, I hope those are right.

But what if I just got an automatic, motorized shouji screen and wanted to tell you that it's closing all by itself? I suspect I need to turn to something like tokoro desu, which I know can be used in ambiguous cases to clarify.

Shouji ga shimatte iru tokoro desu.
(The shouji is closing.)
Shouji ga shimatte iru saichu desu.
(The shouji is in the middle of closing.)

If these are right, then I might as well do other things with tokoro desu while I'm here.

Shouji ga shimaru tokoro desu.
(The shouji is about to close.)
Shouji ga shimatta tokoro desu.
(The shouji just closed.)

And that should work with shimeru just as well.

Watashi wa shouji wo shimeru tokoro desu.
(I am about to close the shouji.)
Shouji wo shimeta tokoro desu.
(I have just closed the shouji.)

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Re: Koko wa Nihongo wo bouryoko shimasu

Postby community.japanese » August 6th, 2015 3:28 pm

jim.schuler さん、
konnichiwa. :D
Your sentences are good however, please note some corrections below.

Mae ni* susumimasho. Correct!
(Let's keep going)

Donna ni keeki o tabetemo kimochi ga waruku narimasen.
(No matter how much cake I eat, I won't feel bad.)

Ikura undou shitemo futorimasu.
(No matter how much I exercise, I get fat.)
Taisou means ‘gymnastic.’

Keekki igai nan demo tabemasu.
(Except for cake, I can eat anything.)
Except means ‘igai.’

Keeki demo nan demo tabemasu.
(I can eat anything, even cake.)

kake igai no tabemono o tabemasu.
(I eat food, except for cake)

Tabemonowo tabemasu. keekki desae mo tabemasu.
(I eat food, even cake)


Regarding tokoro desu.
Dictionary form + tokoro indicates ‘be going to do.’

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