Hmm, how would I say this?

[Jason]

Yeah, pretty much. If you consider there to be a "built-in" もっと in より/方, then using both together gives you something like, "more bigger" or "biggerer" which doesn't work in English either.

[metablue]

No, you can't just drop it like that. Even in polite speech, the "how do I say" phrase is なんというか, or some variation on it. It's almost a "set" phrase. To say なんといいますか sounds more like you're asking someone else, not wondering to yourself.

Ok, that's the phrase I was looking for. The ... 日本語で ... just seemed too long for a "hmmm" type phrase. Anyone know what Jun-san was saying in the class I mentioned above?

[Jason]

I'm pretty sure he says なんっていうかな and なんっていうの, which are just variations on なんというか.

[Bueller_007]

I just talked about this with a Japanese friend. He said it was better using もっと...not in comparisons (in which case he said to use ほう/より）but with, I guess you'd call them adverbs as in もっと深く more deeply.

Yes, this is what I thought as well. But I know I've seen もっと used for both purposes. More confusing than this for me is the difference between もっと and もうちょっと. One of the "Japanese for Busy People" books does a semi-decent job of explaining it, but I've forgotten. I think you use もうちょっと for requests or something. Like it's more natural to say:
前髪はもうちょっと短く切ってくれませんか。

Kind of in places where you could also use 最も so more as an adjective of an adjective (I forget what those are called in English). So you can use them in comparisons, but it is different than ほう/より

最も=most/-est. This is called "superlative form".

"an adjective of an adjective" = "adverb"

[Bueller_007]

Here's my next attempt:

"There will always be someone who is better (than you)."

いつも（あなたより）上手に出来る人がいる。

Just noticed something about this:

You should (probably?) be using a は instead of a が. This emphasizes the permanent existence of these people. Something like this might be best:
あなたがどんなに上手でも、あなたよりも上手に出来る人はいる。

[Jason]

More confusing than this for me is the difference between もっと and もうちょっと. One of the "Japanese for Busy People" books does a semi-decent job of explaining it, but I've forgotten. I think you use もうちょっと for requests or something. Like it's more natural to say:
前髪はもうちょっと短く切ってくれませんか。

As far as I know, もっと is simply "more", while もうちょっと is "just a bit (more/longer)." I think もうちょっと also often has the connotation of "in addition to (what's already been done/the time that's passed)." So you probably wouldn't ask your example sentence right when you walk into the barber but after he's been cutting at least for a little while.

[LittleFish]

"How do you say" I use frequently when speaking with my Japanese friends. It seems to have a nuance or something that English doesn't have, because sometimes when I'm talking to friends in English I get to a point where I want to use "っていうか," but there is no English phrase that exactly corresponds to it.
Usually it's 「何っていうか」 during a "normal" conversation with my friends. But I also frequently 'll use the same phrase minus the 何 as I guess what would be considered a stalling tactic.
I'll give an example: I just finished reading a book, and I have mixed feelings about it. It's not that it wasn't completely uninteresting, but there is some quality about the book that I find hard to pin down. But my friend asks me what I thought of the book:
Aさん「ｘ本はどう？」
Bさん「まあね。面白くないって言うか、何か微妙でした。」
Bさん is basically saying "would you say 'it wasn't interesting'...? It was sort of odd, weird, etc.
What goes before って言うか isn't the FINAL answer, but as you're looking for the right word to describe your thought, you say the thing that closest hits upon what you're trying to express. A sort of thinking-out-loud way of expressing how you're feeling.

Also, when a friend says something, you can take over by starting with って言うか, and continuing the thought as if he weren't exactly hitting upon the correct answer/thought/etc., but he was on the right track, you're just guiding everything along a bit.

I wonder if this makes sense...

[Brody]

Cool, thanks Little Fish. I like the ones that don't translate. I feel like I'm learning esoteric/real Japanese then.

It made as much sense as it could in light that it doesn't translate across the board.

Thanks for the insight.

[Brody]

Hi, sorry for my absence; school's been busy, but I'm back.

Here's what I'm trying to say: "Why do you think I like that song?"
It was in response to someone saying, "don't you know that song is by blah blah" and I said, "why do you think I like that song?" because I thought it was obvious to that person that I would like that song. So I guess it's more of a rhetorical question.

Here's my attempt: なぜ僕がその歌が好きだと思う？
I don't know if this needs to be made into a rhetorical question and I don't know if I should use どうして instead.

Thanks for any help.

[Jason]

Grammatically, it works. But I don't think it works in this situation in Japanese as well as it does in English. Maybe something more along the lines of:

ああ。だから好きなんだ。

[Brody]

Yes, I agree with you Jason-san. I think in Japanese my attempt is more of an actual question, that is, one seeking information. I'm sure there is some way to ask it rhetorically, but...I'll have to think.

[Brody]

I've got a kind of check-up question:

I've been musing over how to say something in the sense of "should" at the same time I've been trying to master questions within statements, for the effect of something like, "I don't know where I should go."

Recently I found this sentence in a picture book, 「お姫様はどうやって探していいのか分かないのです。」The princess didn't know how to search for them [the people she was playing hide-and-seek with.

Now, as I've learned "should," it would be something with ばいい thus,　どこに行けばいいのか分からない。I don't know where I should go.

Does していい　mean "should" as well? Would どこに行っていいのか分からない be "I don't know where I should go" ?

In the お姫様　sentence, what about using 方　as in　探し方? Would it change the meaning?

Thanks!

[Jason]

I've got a kind of check-up question:

I've been musing over how to say something in the sense of "should" at the same time I've been trying to master questions within statements, for the effect of something like, "I don't know where I should go."

Recently I found this sentence in a picture book, 「お姫様はどうやって探していいのか分かないのです。」The princess didn't know how to search for them [the people she was playing hide-and-seek with.

Now, as I've learned "should," it would be something with ばいい thus,　どこに行けばいいのか分からない。I don't know where I should go.

Does していい　mean "should" as well? Would どこに行っていいのか分からない be "I don't know where I should go" ?

The difficulty here is that "should" covers several different and distinct meanings in Japanese. Ranging from "it would be good to do" to "obligation/if I don't do it it'll be bad." The 2nd group is covered by the "〜なければならない/〜なくてはならない" series of constructions. The less "strict" shoulds can be expressed in a variety of ways with varying degrees of "shouldness." These first ones are all about the same level of "shouldness" and the last one being somewhere between them and なければならない:

-〜して（は）いい
-〜たらいい
-といい
-〜ば/ならいい
-(verb dictionary form)べきだ

In the お姫様　sentence, what about using 方　as in　探し方? Would it change the meaning?

Yes, very much. "どうやって(verb)ていい" is much more like "how to go about doing (verb)/what would be the best/a good way to do (verb)." But 〜方 is more like the details of how you actually do (verb). 探し方 would make it sound like she doesn't even know how to search in the first place, like she doesn't know what goes into it. That completely changes the meaning of the sentence from the princess not knowing how she should go about/what would be a good way to go about searching. 意味は全然違う。

[Brody]

Thanks, Jason. I see what you mean.
So, 方　would be more like a recipe: You do A, B, and C. Whereas どうやって。。。していい would be an idea, a long way before 方.

It makes sense to me.