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ませ vs まし

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Jason
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ませ vs まし

Postby Jason » August 14th, 2006 2:01 am

Ok, I know that ませ and まし are used in 敬語 to make requests more polite. But what exactly is the difference between them? Are there rules for when to use which?
Jason
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Brody
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Postby Brody » August 14th, 2006 4:32 am

While I can't say that I know much about this from personal experience (all I know is that ませ is left over from older Japanese and only applies to a few words), I did find this at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Japanese/Grammar/Verbs

Polite verbs
The verbs below are all of the godan type. (Note that the regular forms also exist for these verbs, but are seldom used.)

Polite verbs irregular in the conjunctive and imperative forms Verb "ます masu form" Imperative
くださる kudasaru くださいます kudasaimasu ください kudasai
なさる nasaru なさいます nasaimasu なさい nasai
いらっしゃる irassharu いらっしゃいます irasshaimasu いらっしゃい irasshai
おっしゃる ossharu おっしゃいます osshaimasu おっしゃい osshai

Note that the conjunctive and past forms of the first two verbs, くださる and なさる, also have the alternative forms くだすって/くだすった kudasutte/kudasutta and なすって/なすった nasutte/nasutta, in addition to the normal regular conjugations くださって/くださった kudasatte/kudasatta and なさって/なさった nasatte/nasatta. However, the alternative forms have fallen into disuse - while they are often encountered when reading texts from a few decades ago, it is the regular conjugations that are usually used today. The first three of the above verbs are also the only ones where the imperative form of the ます masu auxiliary verb, ませ mase, is sometimes used: くださいませ kudasaimase, なさいませ nasaimase, いらっしゃいませ irasshaimase. This adds an extra level of politeness.

Additionally, ございます gozaimasu, which originally came from the now-defunct yodan ("four-row") classical Japanese verb gozaru, is also used, although in modern usage, it is always used with the ます masu auxiliary verb ending. There is no imperative form (i.e. you cannot use ませ mase like above).


I guess this answers when to use ませ, and I'd say the reason to use it is because it's just a set something that's left over. I don't think you'd use ませ for any other verbs (but that is my guess). I'll try to see what I can find out about まし.[/b]
AKA パンク野郎

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Bueller_007
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Re: ませ vs まし

Postby Bueller_007 » August 16th, 2006 9:34 am

Jason wrote:Ok, I know that ませ and まし are used in 敬語 to make requests more polite. But what exactly is the difference between them? Are there rules for when to use which?

Now, if I'm not mistaken, ます is just an auxiliary verb that conjugates the same as a regular -su verb.

That means that 〜まし is the gerund form, and 〜ませ is the imperative form.

So if you're talking about くださる, then くださいまし = super-keigo version of ください, and くださいませ = super-keigo version of くだされ.

That makes 〜まし more polite, I guess. But when you get to this level of keigo, I don't think it really matters unless you're talking to the emperor.

See if these help:
http://tinyurl.com/llplb
http://tinyurl.com/pl2jw

I can't be bothered to read them, but they look thorough.

Jason
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Joined: April 22nd, 2006 1:38 pm

Postby Jason » August 16th, 2006 5:08 pm

Thanky to both of you. ^_^
Jason
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Brody
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Postby Brody » August 16th, 2006 6:52 pm

Ah, wow! It MUST be an auxiliary verb (after all, it conjugates exactly like the others). That clears things up a lot.
AKA パンク野郎

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