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Jessi
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Postby Jessi » December 16th, 2009 9:02 am

Thanks for the different ideas and suggestions - keep them coming! Mykolos pretty much hit it on the head by saying that a majority of the site visitors are at lower levels, but I also would love to see some advanced lessons as well, so these suggestions help us a lot when coming up with new lesson ideas. Breaking News English is pretty neat :D
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mykolos
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Japanese Podcasts for Advanced Learners

Postby mykolos » December 20th, 2009 4:49 am

For those of you interested in advanced-level current affairs and business-focused podcasts, I would recommend you check out the Nikkei Shinbun's website ( http://www.nikkei.co.jp/ ) . They have several podcast series on a number of current business topics. You can find them here:

http://www.nikkei.co.jp/podcast/

Cheers,

Mykolos

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jbraswell
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Postby jbraswell » December 27th, 2009 6:17 am

I hate to repeat myself so much, but I think the usual reasons for not having advanced material are lame.

Advanced podcasts are *way* easier to pull off than beginner ones, so the oh-it's-such-hard-work objection doesn't make sense to me. As a perfect example, two guys in their spare time made better advanced podcasts than anyone: http://www.voiceblog.jp/japaneselistening/

Also, yes, the market is small, I understand that. However, advanced learners are willing to pay a lot more. Add this to ease of producing advanced podcasts, and I'd be surprised if they didn't make economic sense.

プチクレア
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Postby プチクレア » February 12th, 2010 5:22 am

What about the Advanced Japanese lessons in the blog ? Obviously there aren't that many of them, but they already exist (and are actively produced, even if they're not that frequent) so what is still missing is the audio. I understand producing podcasts is a lenghtier and more complicated business that one might think, but with advanced lessons you wouldn't need grammar explanations, just the text audio. A kind of super-blog...

Or at least bringing back the blogs on a weekly basis would be a good start...

And shimewazaさん, jbraswellさん, thanks for the link !

EDIT : I hadn't checked the dates... Advanced Japanese lessons in the blog are not very many, but they started not so long ago, and so are released every week or so ! My apologies for saying they were not so frequently released :oops: .
さっぱり分からない !...

Yolan
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Hmmm

Postby Yolan » March 12th, 2010 7:58 am

I myself posted in this or another thread last year asking for more advanced lessons.

Now my thinking is its like asking for ever bigger training wheels. It's not the real thing.

If you want to get fluent, you gotta let go of 'lessons', such as the ones provided on this site, and go for massive exposure to the language. Watch TV without subtitles, listen to podcasts, read comics/books/blogs. Use an SRS like Anki as well to revise whole sentences. Use Heisigs RTK with an SRS. Make Japanese the default language you are living in whenever possible.

I've come round to this position after years and years of study failing to get me beyond upper-intermediate (including a year of exchange), and then finally reading some bloody good reasons on why the way most people study languages is rubbish. Its not that Japanese (or any language) is hard. Small children can do it, and they are idiots. But trying to reach fluency by 'studying' a language is like trying to be a black belt in karate by reading about it.

Not to be rude, but the manager of this site, Peter? His Japanese is just not very good at all, and that is after ten years of living in the country.

I have turned all my old Japanese Pod 101 print-outs into paper for putting Kanji on my walls.

I _cannot_ recommend this blog enough: www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog

Sorry JPod101 team. It's nothing personal. I think you have done a good job in a lot of ways, but the very approach to language learning that you are part of is the problem itself. It's not you guys per-se.

mutley
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Postby mutley » March 12th, 2010 8:58 am

My guess would be that the majority of people of an upper intermediate level study using a lot of material from outside of this site anyway e.g. Japanese books, T.V., talking to friends.

The request for harder lessons is more to supplement this with something a bit more structured I guess.

Yes children learn Japanese, but it takes them a long time and even by 7 or 8 they still often make pretty simple mistakes. They also have people around them (e.g. parents, teachers) giving them constant feedback on their mistakes. The only way you could really reproduce that sort of environment is to be constantly surrounded by Japanese people who are willing to correct you.

Yolan
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Postby Yolan » March 12th, 2010 4:35 pm

mutley wrote:The 只nly way you could really reproduce that 類ort 之f environment is to be constantly surrounded by Japanese 民eople who are willing to 正orrect you.


I think correction is important, but it's the mass exposure to the natural, living language that is key. For this you need to listen to actual Japanese. A _lot_. That means, radio, TV, etc. etc. Sure, maybe some people are doing this, but I doubt many are.

It's exactly this demand for structure that is mistaken I think. When I was on exchange in Japan five years ago I gave away my TV so I could focus on studying grammar. I still can't speak like a native, and I don't believe its because I'm 'too old' or some such. Rather, its because I haven't had the bulk exposure people must have in order to reach a native speaker level. You can want every higher 'levels' of structured lessons, but insofar as they are structured, and they are lessons, they are not the real thing.

I am pretty much putting forward a bit of the position outlaid by Katsumoto in the above blog I have posted the link to. Rather than debate with me if you disagree, I suggest you first try reading his much more detailed and excellent explanation of what with wrong with the standard textbook/classroom/grammar approach to language learning.

Javizy
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Postby Javizy » March 13th, 2010 9:40 pm

Yolan wrote:
mutley wrote:The 只nly way you could really reproduce that 類ort 之f environment is to be constantly surrounded by Japanese 民eople who are willing to 正orrect you.


I think correction is important, but it's the mass exposure to the natural, living language that is key. For this you need to listen to actual Japanese. A _lot_. That means, radio, TV, etc. etc. Sure, maybe some people are doing this, but I doubt many are.

It's exactly this demand for structure that is mistaken I think. When I was on exchange in Japan five years ago I gave away my TV so I could focus on studying grammar. I still can't speak like a native, and I don't believe its because I'm 'too old' or some such. Rather, its because I haven't had the bulk exposure people must have in order to reach a native speaker level. You can want every higher 'levels' of structured lessons, but insofar as they are structured, and they are lessons, they are not the real thing.

I am pretty much putting forward a bit of the position outlaid by Katsumoto in the above blog I have posted the link to. Rather than debate with me if you disagree, I suggest you first try reading his much more detailed and excellent explanation of what with wrong with the standard textbook/classroom/grammar approach to language learning.

A lot of people who do AJATT can barely introduce themselves. It's a great method for quickly developing fluent recognition, but at some point you need to start supplementing that with some production. Some people argue it should come after a silent phase, but I don't think that should last as long as it takes to pass JLPT1 and beyond.

The four areas of language learning all require individual training, and you'll make the most progress when exercising all of them. Your blackbelt analogy is actually pretty suited to AJATT: you're trying to become a proficient speaker/writer in a language simply by reading and listening to it. If you want to become a blackbelt, you need to be able to kick your opponent's ass, not just recognise and understand the moves he's using to kick the crap out of you.

I think encouraging as much exposure, and the use of SRS and Heisig are all great things, by the way. I just don't think you should take that guy's word as gospel. I have organised a bunch of flashcards that will allow me to learn all the JLPT1 grammar expressions in a few weeks if I want to go at that pace. There's nothing wrong with using the structure of a workbook or whatever. It could take me God knows how long to find all of those expressions myself, and then analyse them, look them up, etc, and I'd have nothing to test myself with at the end of it.

You'll probably like this forum anyway http://forum.koohii.com/index.php

mieth
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Postby mieth » March 14th, 2010 11:14 am

Ajat is interesting and all and I am sure that katsumoto is good at Japanese and but his whole site is written in English besides his little tweets. If he was soooo fluent why doesn't he make videos of himself speaking Japanese in all of his fluency to show everyone just how spectacular his method is. I have a feeling his speaking isn't all that.

Yolan
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Postby Yolan » March 14th, 2010 12:55 pm

"A 壌ot 之f 民eople who 為o AJATT 可an barely 紹ntroduce themselves. It's a great 法ethod for quickly developing fluent recognition, but at some 岳oint you 要eed to start supplementing that with some production."

何hat exactly 為o you mean by the "AJATT 法ethod"? 中n 何hat sense does it comprise 之f being entirely passive?

The 意dea is to live as much 之f your 生ife as possible 中n the language you are studying. 中n my case, that means 勿ot just listening to a heck 之f a 壌ot 之f TV and radio, but also making Japanese friends and hanging around with/talking with them.

Notice that 吾 am posting here 中n a 糸hread calling for more advanced lessons. 民eople asking for this 可an certainly 為o more than 紹ntroduce themselves.


"Ajat is interesting and 皆ll and 吾 am sure that katsumoto is 良ood at Japanese and but his 全穴ole site is written 中n English besides his 小ittle tweets."

Disregarding that the site is _aimed_ at 民eople wanting to 習earn Japanese, 勿ot 民eople who already speaking, 何hat you are saying is 勿ot 平ven true, 彼e has several sections throughout the site written 中n Japanese.

"If 彼e was soooo fluent why doesn't 彼e 作ake videos 之f himself speaking Japanese 中n 皆ll 之f his fluency to 示how everyone just how spectacular his 法ethod is. 吾 have a feeling his speaking isn't 皆ll that."

Actually, 彼e does have exactly that on his site. His Japanese kicks ass. Unlike Peters.

Anyway, 吾'm 勿ot 行oing to waste any more 之f my 時ime responding 中n English to 民eople who 津aven't 平ven tried to 読ead/understand 何hat is written on the site.

If its 勿ot for you, its 勿ot my loss, its yours. It's 勿ot that guys loss either, because 彼e isn't trying to 売ell you anything.

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Postby Javizy » March 14th, 2010 7:42 pm

What's my loss? I read, write, speak, and listen to Japanese whenever I can. I used Heisig and I use Anki every day. Do you think the AJATT guy invented any of these things? I think he makes some good, if unoriginal, points among a sea of cheesy and unsubstantiated BS, but that doesn't make it THE way to learn a language. Take what works for you, like I've taken what works for me from everywhere that I can.

I haven't read the majority of his crap. I have heard a lot of accounts from AJATTers though. Many of whom have very advanced recognition skills (newspapers and such), but struggle terribly with conversation. From some of the discussions I've read, I got the impression that production isn't promoted at all as part of AJATT, even if you make use of it yourself. There are, at least, a lot of people who believe they will become fluent speakers just by reading and listening after reading his blogs.

By the way, I don't know how Peter learned Japanese, so I don't know why you mention him as the anti-AJATT archetype. Seems a little disrespectful, even if you find his language skills unimpressive.

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Postby Ulver_684 » March 14th, 2010 10:54 pm

Javizy wrote:By the way, I don't know how Peter learned Japanese, so I don't know why you mention him as the anti-AJATT archetype. Seems a little disrespectful, even if you find his language skills unimpressive.


Javizy-san! :wink:

You are right! That's why I said before but my comment was remove! :oops::(

Yolan
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Disrespectful?

Postby Yolan » March 27th, 2010 5:11 pm

To the above comments about how Katsumoto is not 'original':

Who said he was? Certainly not Katsumoto himself, who constantly points out how a lot if not most of his ideas come from www.antimoon.com, a site for learning English. I am not asking you all to go and worship the guy, but to read his points and think about them for yourself. The following articles are particularly good:

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/bl ... understand

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/bl ... e-you-make


To the above comment about how the AJATT method does not sufficiently emphasise 'doing things':


The merits/demerits of actively writing/talking less/more than listening/speaking is something we could discuss. I am with Katsumoto when he says that by trying to talk/write too soon (especially when not corrected) we can form bad habits. But that aside, my original post was in response to people asking for more advanced lessons here on JPod101. How is listening to/reading JPod101 any more active than listening to/reading/watching as much Japanese as you can shoehorn into your life?


To the above comments about me being disrespectful of Peter:

I'm pretty damn sure Peter is a really nice guy. But he is also a guy selling a "proven method of mastering Japanese" (that is from this site). To point out that he himself has not mastered Japanese is not being disrespectful, it is a relevant observation. It is true that I do not know for sure how he studies, but as he is involved in the creation and marketing of a structured lesson based approach, it is fair to surmise that he himself beliefs in its efficacy. It is also my suggestion that relying on such a method is the root of his average Japanese (not that Peter is in any way lacking in intelligence). I am, of course saying that as somebody who is convinced (after years of hard work and terrible failure) that immersion is everything, and classes only get in the way of that.


For the last seven weeks now I have been living most of each day in Japanese, and I have really noticed the results. I'm now keeping a blog about my thoughts on this process in Japanese at: http://danchanman.blog29.fc2.com/
PLEASE NOTE: I am not posting this blog for you to go and see how good my Japanese is. I am not offering any kind 'proof' that what I am doing is the right way. MY JAPANESE IS TERRIBLE, and I know it. But it has improved an awful lot more in the last few weeks than it has in the last few years.

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Postby Taurus » March 31st, 2010 7:08 am

Javizy wrote:I have heard a lot of accounts from AJATTers though. Many of whom have very advanced recognition skills (newspapers and such), but struggle terribly with conversation. From some of the discussions I've read, I got the impression that production isn't promoted at all as part of AJATT, even if you make use of it yourself. There are, at least, a lot of people who believe they will become fluent speakers just by reading and listening after reading his blogs.


(Now that the thread's been derailed...)

Well yeah, that is indeed the theory - that input alone is sufficient for output; that you don't need to rehearse/study output to learn it.

As far as I can tell from following the AJATT/antimoon/input theory approach, I think the theory is sound. But as you point out, it takes a long time (and a lot of input) to acquire enough output to function conversationally. My understanding has increased a lot by using the AJATT method, but I sometimes it feels like I struggle conversationally because I just never have conversations. It sometimes feels like I can't produce a lot of simple set phrases/conjugations as well as I could when I arrived in Japan.

But then I did manage to check in and out of a hotel entirely in Japanese the other day; and after I had checked my parents in, I happened to say something like thank you in Japanese to the porter, and when she replied with the token 'hatsuon ga jouzu desu' and I replied with the token 'sonna koto ja arimasen', we had the rest of the conversation (about the room keys, and hotel resources, and where I was from and what I did in Japan etc.) in Japanese, and I understood all of it. And that wouldn't have happened a few months ago.

My own feeling is that focusing on input has a slightly different learning curve to focusing on output: the former has a curve that increases slowly at the start, but rapidly later; the latter has a curve that increases rapidly at the start but slows down later.

I guess the solution is to try a bit of both. (And in fact, I get the impression that this is actually what the AJATT guy did - although from his site it comes across that all you need is input, I read somewhere that he had Skype conversations while he was learning, so I think he was probably practicing output too.)

mieth
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Postby mieth » March 31st, 2010 8:53 am

The issue with input only is that when you are watching movies, dramas etc there is rarely a case where they say the things that you need to be able to say. For example when do you ever hear in a drama someone say something like "the guy in front of me`s ticket didn`t go through and for some reason it looks like my suica won`t either. Could you check it out for me?" I watch a lot of Japanese myself but nothing you watch will ever prepare you for this kind of situation.. One that I was actually in the other day. The fact of the matter is that you need to be around and listening to ordinary people in ordinary situations to enable you to effectively communicate. The input available just will not teach you this. Even if you listen 28 hours a day.

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