Get rid of romaji in Intermediate and Advanced lessons

[Taurus]

I don't really get this distinction between an advanced student and a beginner. Different people study at different paces and have different strengths and weaknesses. It's not like some character level in an RPG where one day you make the transition from beginner to advanced and all of a sudden acquire new skills. Learning is an ongoing process that takes different students in different directions.

Which is a mealy-mouthed way of voting for Belton's inclusive approach.

[Knocks]

I don't really get this distinction between an advanced student and a beginner.

It's interesting that you don't get it, because the entire curriculum of Japanesepod101 is based on that distinction. And if I'm not mistaken, so are college courses, and everything else that's intended, you know, to teach.

[Javizy]

I used the word "shortsighted" in my original post, because although it's fair to say "I only want to learn to speak/listen", it's not really that simple, is it? Reading and writing are a means as well as an ends, and the ones I find most effective in all sorts of ways that romaji-slackers will never understand without trying themselves. They also leave themselves horribly unprepared for studying more advanced material. Anybody who's learned even a small amount of kanji will appreciate how much it helps with vocabulary alone, even when listening. I think Knocks was suggesting that it's a bit hard to appreciate this without having run the course yourself.

There's not much of a discussion to be had though, really. It's not even a question of "should I learn kanji?", these people just flat out can't be bothered to learn as much as kana to any level of proficiency. They have nothing to bring to the table. Like I said before, these people are part of the audience too, so like it or not, there isn't a good argument for removing romaji from the PDFs. Aside from a little disgruntlement in this thread, nobody really loses, do they?

[Taurus]

Yeah, and I think there have been several discussions on here about the effectiveness of college courses compared to other learning techniques, like the All Japanese All The Time guy's approach, or Barry Farber's, and I think it has yet to be proved that a rigid college-course approach is either the best way or the only way to learn Japanese.

And I think it's interesting that even the staff at Japanesepod have struggled to pin down what these distinctions are between beginners and intermediate students, to judge by the way several of the series overlap, or to judge by the way that the original beginner series was supplemented by a second series that ran concurrently and so on.

So I'd still stick with an inclusive approach to help people, you know, teach themselves in whatever way they choose. (For what it's worth, I'd also try to stick to a less aggressive mode of discourse.)

(Also for what it's worth, I can't imagine how much more difficult it must be to learn Japanese without being able to expose yourself to the infinite amount of material that exists if you know all the kanji, but hey, like I say, it's horses for courses, isn't it?)

[Yamanchu]

As a lower intermediate/intermediate learner of Japanese, I also think that romaji should not be used in lessons at this level.

Any pdf file which I print out for use, I delete the romaji before I print it out so that I cannot be tempted to read the romaji.

Also, as previously pointed out, these short stories are great for reading practice.

[Knocks]

I will personally bake a plate of chocolate chip cookies to anyone who listens to Advanced lessons here and still needs romaji.

[Belton]

There are now about three issues in this thread.

Romaji
It's trivial.
(This is a bit like the kids who freak out because their carrots and peas touch on their dinner plate, I reckon. (^^) )
and maybe a low priority in the scale of things for jPod staff. So I wouldn't hold your breath. It took a long time to get the ability to copy Japanese.

I believe a large part of the reason might be the automated production process that uses the same style for all the levels and lessons.
The best solution would be a minor redesign of the layout of the pdf's template. To remove the offending romaji to another page yet still allow those that want it to have it. Some people have a use for romaji to quickly access a sentence or word. It doesn't necessarily exclude them using kana or kanji.

Another solution would be to offer a broken down pdf as part of premium subscriptions in the same way the audio is now edited.

Yet another solution would be for jPod to have a definite stance based on a teacher's professional experience of teaching Japanese as a second language. A theory of how people should be learning Japanese and the materials they should use and a willingness to impose this and maybe lose some audience.
Then they could go from romaji to kana to kanji with furigana to kanji to kanji and no translation.

Indeed I wish there was more official presence from jPod. (at least in the feature request and help sections. )

Kana is a fairly easy thing to learn. So yes it is surprising that people don't make the effort. And the more you try to use it the easier it gets. (However in large blocks it's difficult to read. Even for Japanese as my friends tell me. Large blocks of romaji are also difficult to deal with as I found out when a penfriend lost her ability to type in Japanese on her computer. Ease of reading oddly only really appears when you can use kanji as well. Very catch 22.)

It's also fashion. A few years ago the publishers of JFBP offered romaji texts on all their levels. Once Japanese courses completely ignored the writing systems. And presumably turned out effective Japanese speakers. A number of respected reference books use romaji in addition to kana and kanji. (The grammar dictionaries for instance) Now the fashion has swung the other way.


Levels
In a linear structured course you can make level distinctions, mainly because levels are controlled by an exam, and to pass the exam and progress you need to follow a particular syllabus and order. And you can deny entry to a given course. A classic school system.
Self-learning and the Internet etc. allow for much more freedom. It's a bit more of a buffet. Yes some topics require an understanding of underlying concepts but if you have a need to use a particular structure your supposed level shouldn't stop you from trying. Lessons are open and available to all. This might be the reason for jPods editorial decision to include romaji.

There is not really any way to determine peoples ability around here. It's probably best neither to boast nor speculate about levels.

Board etiquette
What I like (liked?) about these boards is the general helpful, friendly and welcoming tone.
There's no need to call people stupid because they decide on a different course of study to you. There is no need to exclude anyone from a lesson or discussion because they don't measure up to some ill defined standard. It's possible to discuss ideas without resorting to such behaviour.

Fortunately this isn't high school. In adult education usually all are welcome and everyone can learn from each other. Some of the cleverest people I've met have an ability to discuss their area of expertise (without being condescending) with people who have no knowledge or limited knowledge of a subject, and an ability to be tolerant kind and helpful.
Not everyone follows the same methods of study. There are more approaches to study a language than you might think. It's a mistake to think one's experience is universal. There is no need to impose your style on other people or to belittle them or to exclude them. There's no need to be aggressive. It just drives people away or discourages people from contributing.

[Neil53]

Very well put

[gerald_ford]

Well said, well said. A few extra thoughts if I may:

1) Romaji - I agree that it's not necessary by the time your each Intermediate Japanese, but I understand that some folks may still not feel comfortable. As you study Japanese thorugh JPod, I highly recommend branching out into other sources once you get comfortable. I read my little girl's children's books (hiragana only...she's 2 years old), and that provides enough challenge for just by itself, but as time goes on, it gets easier. Also, White Rabbit Press publishes some really good "graded reader" books, levels 1 - 4 for practicing reading. That, in combination with the Kanji Bank, or Anki will help immensely.

But if you're serious about learning Japanese, you'll come to this conclusion sooner or later anyways. So, let's not worry about it so much. Everyone comes to Japanese with different backgrounds and experiences, so instead of worrying about what others do, just focus on what you can do to improve.

2) Levels - I personally like the flexible, choose-for-yourself structure of JPod, and I can speak from experience that it works for me. I've dabbled in a few different tracks, but then settle down on a track or two that are especially productive for me. I encourage others to do the same. I like the overlap of studying two different tracks myself. One is good for building vocab, the other (more difficult) improves listening. Again, that's just me.

3) Etiquette - I like JPod for the same reasons you (Belton) do: friendly, helpful and people encourage one another, and I'd like to see JPod stay around for a long time. Let's please keep it that way. As stated above, let's stop worrying about others' faults, and focus on our own, and our own needs for improvement.

Thanks all!

[Knocks]

Levels
In a linear structured course ...

You sir, simply refuse to acknowledge that Japanasepod101 seasons ARE linear and structured. They teach grammar methodically from simple to complex, and new vocab builds on existing vocab. Yes, Beginner material steps into Intermediate territory occasionally, but Advanced is a different beast entirely. If you have ever listened to an Advanced lesson, you will know that they are 95% in Japanese, with Peter making occasional clarifications in English.

Regarding people's right to participate. Obviously everyone has the right to participate in whatever they want, but it would be POLITE and CONSIDERATE to listen to an Advanced lesson before chiming in, because that's the topic of this discussion. The very few people who are asking for romaji on here have no idea what an Advanced lesson sounds like. They simply want the insurance that by the time they're ready for one, the romaji is still there. Again, my cookies offer still stands, and for a reason.

This is not about the student's own perceived level of proficiency (which is almost always wrong anyway). This is about the level of Japanesepod101 seasons, which are clearly structured, and anyone who has made it to the level of Advanced lessons has given up on the idea of using romaji a long time ago.

[QuackingShoe]

I guess you're on a first-name basis with everyone who listens to the upper-level lessons?

At any rate, the only reason I really don't understand what the contention is about is because I can't understand how someone who has already quit using romaji would be tempted to 'cheat' or whatever. When I'm given the choice of romaji and kana/kanji in the same document, my eyes move to the kana/kanji automatically because it's been so long since I've used romaji that I'm actually really terrible at reading it; it just looks like gibberish. If given a situation where I wanted to read romaji, I'd actually have a hard time not cheating by looking at the kana/kanji!
To that end, it seems like the existence of romaji shouldn't effect a kanji-reading user one way or the other, except perhaps to hurt the eyes (it IS rather ugly).

I've seen, however, in this thread, that people who listen to the higher-level courses apparently DO feel that temptation to 'cheat,' so obviously my experience isn't universal. But, I might suggest that, if you're in a position where romaji still seems like the easy alternative when confronted with both, you might be better served in continuing to practice reading your kana/kanji so that this is no longer the case, instead of trying to alter other peoples learning methods.


I guess the short version of this post would be, "Sounds like a personal problem."

[Taurus]

Regarding people's right to participate. Obviously everyone has the right to participate in whatever they want, but it would be POLITE and CONSIDERATE to listen to an Advanced lesson before chiming in, because that's the topic of this discussion. The very few people who are asking for romaji on here have no idea what an Advanced lesson sounds like. They simply want the insurance that by the time they're ready for one, the romaji is still there. Again, my cookies offer still stands, and for a reason.

Sorry, I thought it was about intermediate lessons, as per the topic title. I think some of the intermediate lessons seem, to me, at least, to be entirely within the reach of a lower level student, and it's entirely conceivable that a lower level student might find romaji some sort of assistance.

I don't, by the way. I can barely read romaji. I just think that an inclusive solution is the best solution, and someone has already suggested an approach that suits your desire to not see romaji while keeping the option there for stubborn romaji-fixated learners earlier in the thread. As someone has mentioned in another thread, one of the best things about jpod is the way it provides a welcoming, inclusive atmosphere and a whole bunch of resources that people can use in whatever way they want. I think closing off some of those options or resources would be a bad thing.

Anyway, ultimately it's up to the Jpod people whether they want to remove the romaji or not. I've said my piece, and I'm not sure I want to see any more threats to bake any cookies.

[Belton]

@Knock殿
Yes you're right I don't accept that the podcasts are strictly linear.
Even if they were the ethos is they are open to all so you can't really say what anyone brings to the advanced or Intermediate levels. It's definitely mixed ability. As it isn't a classroom situation I see no harm whatsoever in this.

If jPod was strictly linear I doubt we'd be seeing repetitive seasons and there would be more of a roadmap and syllabus of study. The newbie and beginner and lower intermediate would have managed to cover the suitable material by now. It would be more akin to a conventional language course and take less advantage of the fluid nature of the Internet.
After a certain base level I feel you can pick and chose lessons according to what you have a need to say and understand. (Indeed I wish the indexing was better to make this easier)
I see the level as an indication of the complexity of the material on offer and overall I think the idea is to be able to pick and choose and customise to suit your own interests.

I think your comment at stuart_jukesさん was unnecessary and nor do I accept your high school analogies.
I found nothing wrong in what he was saying, if anything it was restrained given Javizyくん's original tone which was also unnecessary but at least he doesn't try to suggest they don't try to counter-argue or have no right to participate.

OK you asked for romaji to be removed at Intermediate and above.
For very valid reasons.
Of those few commenting (I presume actual users are in the hundreds if not thousands),
A couple of people said they still had a use for it (at Intermediate and above presumably). Their opinions and needs as valid as yours by the way.
More wanted it removed.
or aren't especially bothered either way.
or can see the middle ground that a slight tweak in formatting would give.
or are cynical or realistic enough to think that jPod isn't going to do anything about it anytime soon.

No word from jPod staff at all on their reasoning or future intentions.

[Javizy]

In my defence, the romajers were faceless when I made my original comment, and then Stuart stepped through the flames to represent the alphabet loving masses, and it became personal. I was venting a bit of frustration leftover from reading Making Sense of Japanese, which had entire paragraphs of romaji that hurt my head. I remember cursing the very souls of the people who force publishers to print the stuff.

It just seems very difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to reach an advanced level through simply listening and speaking, at least in anywhere near a comparable period of study. I do think, however, that most of the people against the romaji are thinking in these logical, efficient learning terms, and how they do things themselves, and not of the overall audience.

A lot of people might be unenthusiastic school students, casual learners who don't intend to reach an advanced level, beginners who like to go through all new lessons on the website, among the thousands of those who half-heartedly run for a while and flat-out give up on the language, or who knows what, maybe they have a disability that prevents them from discerning more than 10 strokes in a given square area. Whatever the case, JPod has to cater for all of them. If there are, say, 500 listeners in these groups willing to pay money to see the PDF's, regardless of their current ability or future prospects with the language, then it's just not good business to exclude them.

If the individual parts of the PDFs are stored in a database as separate fields, then I very much like the idea of a customisable one, especially with the option of an iPhone friendly format, as somebody suggested recently. Even though I would never recommend reading romaji to any learners, but I think all paying customers deserve access to the material in their own way.

[Yamanchu]

Instead of supplying 2 pdf files, (one with romaji and one without), wouldn't it be a simple matter to have the romaji on a page by itself?

Then, people who want the romaji have it, and for people who don't want the romaji it's a simple matter to delete that page from the pdf or, if they print it out, simply not to print the page with romaji. Problem solved, everyone's happy?