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くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

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mewes6190
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby mewes6190 » October 30th, 2013 1:24 pm

Uh, thats really interesting, 奈津子先生. Thanks for the insights, I never knew there was such a big difference.

From now on, I'll simply stay with the Kanji! 8)

皆さん、
また。 :lol:

community.japanese
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby community.japanese » November 1st, 2013 10:46 am

くろくまさん、
どういたしまして! :wink:

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

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mewes6190
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby mewes6190 » November 8th, 2013 9:37 am

みなさん、
こんにちは。

また、設問があります。

漢字の「傍」は「そば」です。英語に「next to, close by」と言います。
でも、漢字の「側」はも「そば」です。英語にも「next to, close by」と言います。  :shock:

Okay, I have to switch to english now, the next part is undoable for me in japanese...

So, if my gibberish above doesn't make any sense: I'm wondering, that the two kanji 傍 and 側 mean exactly the same thing.
They have even the same reading.
So, what's the difference between them? When and why would I use the one, and when the other?

Does anyone know and could help me out?

Thanks for any hint,
best
くろくま

Tracel
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby Tracel » November 8th, 2013 8:22 pm

くろくまさん、
漢字の「傍」は「そば」です。英語に「next to, close by」と言います。
でも、漢字の「側」はも「そば」です。英語にも「next to, close by」と言います。 


I'm wondering, that the two kanji 傍 and 側 mean exactly the same thing. They have even the same reading. So, what's the difference between them? When and why would I use the one, and when the other?


この二つの漢字を調べてみました。私の辞書によると「傍」と「側」は違う音読みと訓読みがあるし、違う意味もあるらしいです。似ているけれどね。
I looked up the two kanji. According to my dictionary both have different onyomi and kunyomi, and different meanings. Although they are similar.

「傍」 = Kunyomi かたわ(ら)、Onyomi ぼう Meaning: Bystander, side, besides, nearby

「側」 = Kunyomi かわ、そば Onyomi そく Meaning: side, lean, oppose, regret

でも、「傍ら」という言葉を引いたら、Alternative kanji「側ら」も書いてあります。両方が使えるのはわからないけれど、一つが多分昔の使い方でしょうかな。
But, when I looked up the word 「傍ら」 , an alternative kanji 「側ら」was also given. I don't know why both can be used, but one may be an old usage.

Hope this helps.
トラ 8)
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

mmmason8967
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby mmmason8967 » November 8th, 2013 11:08 pm

トラさん wrote:でも、「傍ら」という言葉を引いたら、Alternative kanji「側ら」も書いてあります。両方が使えるのはわからないけれど、一つが多分昔の使い方でしょうかな。
But, when I looked up the word 「傍ら」 , an alternative kanji 「側ら」was also given. I don't know why both can be used, but one may be an old usage.

Denshi Jisho classifies 傍ら as a "common word" but classifies 側ら as "irregular okurigana usage", so you're probably right. It also gives そば as a kunyomi reading for both kanji (as does Rikaichan) although that's no guarantee that it's a common reading.

As you say, words using these two kanji do seem to have similar meanings. 傍 seems to be more related to people things like onlooker, bystander, spectator, audience and so on, while 側 seems to be more related to things that are on the side or the flank--側車 is a motorcycle sidecar and 左側 is the side of the road that all right-thinking nations drive on. :wink: But there does seem to be quite a bit of overlap between the meanings.

マイケル

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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby community.japanese » November 14th, 2013 1:30 pm

くろくまさん、トラさん、マイケルさん、
an interesting fact about kanji is that we don't always have to use kanji
and some would be better stay in hiragana.
The word そば would be one of those cases.

Basic meanings of 傍 and 側 are as トラsan listed :wink:
I'd usually consider those meanings to decide which kanji to use.
傍ら would be usually with 傍 or in hiragana. 側 can be read as かたわら as well, but
like マイケルsan's dictionary explained, it'd not be the first choice :mrgreen:
And, yes, 側 has a lot to do with "side" or "aspect".
I'd use the kanji 傍 when it involves "person". As you see, the left side of 傍 means "person".

By the way, くろくまさん、 "question" is 質問(しつもん) 8)
設問(せつもん) is "question to exam", so it's appropriate for questionnaires and/or exams :wink:

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

mewes6190
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby mewes6190 » November 14th, 2013 2:15 pm

奈津子先生、
お返事、ありがとうございました。

That really clears that up! Actually, I took both Kanji from old texts, I guess. At least one of them is an old short story by Natsume Soseki, and the other sounded like an old fairy tale: 雪女. So I got confused, but now that you're saying it, yes, obviously in modern japanese it's most often written in hiragana.
Anyway, I like those little differences and nuances kanji sometimes deliver. :)

community.japanese wrote:By the way, くろくまさん、 "question" is 質問(しつもん) 8)
設問(せつもん) is "question to exam", so it's appropriate for questionnaires and/or exams :wink:


Who's to say I didn't mean it that way. And you passed, 奈津子先生!! 試験を合格しました。 :oiwai:
Nah, just kidding, I didn't know that. And I guess it's two of those words I regularly mix up - like つかう and つくる... :roll:
I'll try to remember it this time, thanks for the hint. :D

The people in this forum are so helpful and informative! I like it! :)

Thanks to all of you who looked the kanjis up and helped me, マイケルさん, トラさん and 奈津子先生.

くろくま

community.japanese
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby community.japanese » November 20th, 2013 8:05 am

くろくまさん、
お返事が遅くなってすみません。
Glad I could help! :D

We (the team) are also happy about this kind of informative and productive threads!
Thank you all for the great efforts :wink:

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

mewes6190
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby mewes6190 » November 25th, 2013 10:20 pm

みんさん、
こんにちは!(本当、ドイツにこんばんはです。 :lol:
お元気ですか。

まだ単語いくつものを勉強します。毎日日本の文やこのフォーラムを読みます。わからない言葉がカードに書きますし、二十単語が揃いますから、練習すろ始まります。
今週病気のです。だから書くの時間があります。:D

わたしはクリスマス大好きです。もうプレゼント全部買いました。 :oiwai: 今クリスマス料理だけ巧みます。
あなたもクリスマスプレゼント買いましたか。

またね
くろくま

(I'm still very bad at particles, conjunctions and the subjunctive! I'm happy for every hint and tip anyone can offer! :) )

Hello everybody! (Or here in Germany it's "Good evening")
How are you?

I'm still learning a lot of vocabulary. I'm reading japanese texts and this forum every day. Words I don't know I write on cards. When I got 20 Vocab-Flashcards together, I start practicing them.
This week I'm sick, so I got the time write again. :D

I love christmas. I already bought all presents. Now I only have to think up some christmas dinner. Did you too already bought your presents?

Best
Kurokuma

thegooseking
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby thegooseking » November 25th, 2013 11:16 pm

くろくまさん、

練習すろ始まります


はじまる/はじめる is one of those tricky intransitive/transitive pairs.

You can either say:-
練習しはじめます - I begin to practise. (い-form of する + はじめる)
or
練習がはじまります - Practice begins.

早くよくなって!
小狼

(Edited to put the English in British English (which I should have been using to begin with) to make the distinction between practise (verb) and practice (noun) clearer.)
Last edited by thegooseking on November 25th, 2013 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tracel
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby Tracel » November 25th, 2013 11:27 pm

くろくまさん、
まだ単語いくつものを勉強します。毎日日本の文やこのフォーラムを読みます。わからない言葉がカードに書きますし、二十単語が揃いますから、練習すろ始まります。
今週病気のです。だから書くの時間があります。:D

わたしはクリスマス大好きです。もうプレゼント全部買いました。 :oiwai: 今クリスマス料理だけ巧みます。
あなたもクリスマスプレゼント買いましたか。


くろくまさんは病気だなんて、残念ですね。私、病気になるのは大嫌いです。本当に大きい赤ちゃんのようになるわけですよ、私は。 :x

私もクリスマスが好きです。毎年プレゼントを自分で作りたいのに、まだプレゼントを作る時間がなかったです。 先週末にはクリスマス・カードを作りたかったけれど、突然友達が私たちを訪ねてきました。 送るのは遅すぎないために、今週作らないわけにはいきません。

くろくまさんはお体を大事にしてください。

トラ :blob:
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

mewes6190
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby mewes6190 » November 25th, 2013 11:28 pm

小狼さん、

thegooseking wrote:くろくまさん、

練習すろ始まります


はじまる/はじめる is one of those tricky intransitive/transitive pairs.

You can either say:-
練習しはじめます - I begin to practice. (い-form of する + はじめる)
or
練習がはじまります - Practice begins.


You're right. That's the same as 決める and 決まる, isn't it?

I always mix that up... :(

And I can never recall the conjunction that leads to 始め or まる. :( I have to find a mnenomic for that. Something like gama and shime ... I'll work on that. :D

Thanks for the reminder.

早くよくなって!


ありがとう! :oops:

thegooseking
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby thegooseking » November 26th, 2013 12:31 am

mewes6190 wrote:And I can never recall the conjunction that leads to 始め or まる. :( I have to find a mnenomic for that. Something like gama and shime ... I'll work on that. :D


Just came up with it just now, but you can use film titles. There is a film called E.T., so the e sound is transitive and there is a film called A.I., so the a sound is intransitive.

先週には、クリスマスについて思いました。どうしてかな。クリスマスはもうすぐですか :lol: ?とにかく、私は英のクリスマスがあまり好きではありません。しかし、イマジネーションにヨーロッパのクリスマスが大好きです。十四才ときは、オーストリアのアルプスにいました。四月でしたのに、おとぎ話からクリスマスみたいでした。

I was thinking about Christmas last week. Wonder why. Is Christmas soon :lol: ? Anyway, I don't really like British Christmas. However, I love the Christmas of Europe in my imagination. When I was fourteen, I was in the Austrian Alps. Although it was April, it looked like a Christmas from a fairy tale.

小狼

mewes6190
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby mewes6190 » November 26th, 2013 7:38 am

トラさん、

お返事にありがとうございました。
ほんとに、私は毎年中1-2回ぐらいだけ病気になります。だから毎度追加休み(can I say that? I put it together on my own.)みたいに感触します。(Or should it be ように?)

クリスマスプレゼントはそうですね。自分の作りましたのプレゼントは一番きれいなプレゼントですねよ。
でも私も作る時間がないんです。

今、あなたがほしいんだように体を大事にしたいです。  :ue:

くろくま
Last edited by mewes6190 on November 26th, 2013 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

mewes6190
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Re: くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

Postby mewes6190 » November 26th, 2013 8:15 am

thegooseking wrote:Just came up with it just now, but you can use film titles. There is a film called E.T., so the e sound is transitive and there is a film called A.I., so the a sound is intransitive.


That's fantastic! The Mnenomic-God bless Steven Spielberg! Hehe. :D
Now I just have to remember that the transitive comes with が and the intransitive with を or し(the い-form of する).

先週には、クリスマスについて思いました。どうしてかな。クリスマスはもうすぐですか :lol: ?とにかく、私は英のクリスマスがあまり好きではありません。しかし、イマジネーションにヨーロッパのクリスマスが大好きです。十四才ときは、オーストリアのアルプスにいました。四月でしたのに、おとぎ話からクリスマスみたいでした。


変なですね。クリスマスは毎年に急な着きます。 :roll: :lol:
英のクリスマスは何好きではありませんか。プラムパッディング?
でも、君の言う通りだ.ヨーロッパのクリスマスが大奇麗でいません。ときどき。 :D
そして、アルプスの山の中で街が本当にサンタ・クロースの街にみたいですよ。冬に格別よ。

It's strange, isn't it? Christmas comes so suddenly every year. :D
What exactly don't you like about english Christmas? The plumpudding?
But you're right, Christmas in Europe is always very beautiful. Sometimes. :D
And the villages in the alps really look like the village of Santa Claus, don't they? Especially in winter.

くろくま

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