I miss Japan

[adlerb9202]

There are number of words for "to miss" as in "I miss Japan". I'm not sure which is best to make the sentence, "I miss Japan." Would 私は日本が懐かしむ be correct?

Google translate, 99 percent unreliable when it comes to English-Japanese translation, offers 私は日本を欠場。

[community.japanese]

adlerb9202-san,
欠場 is definitely not the translation at all

I'm often asked how to say "I miss..." in Japanese and I always hesitate to answer to that because there's absolutely
no corresponding spot-on word in Japanese. Both English word "miss" and Japanese なつかしい are in-translatable.
It means the best translation changes in accordance with context.
If you want to say "I miss Japan", probably you can say;
日本がなつかしい。
日本が恋しい。

懐かしむ is a transitive verb, so the particle is を and you can describe someone as Aさんは、日本を懐かしんでいる。

When we use "miss" and then a person, like "I miss you", I often recommend to say さびしい or 会いたい as "translation".
In the situation we use the phrase "I miss you", in natural conversation, we'd say さびしい or 会いたい

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[mmmason8967]

If you want to say "I miss Japan", probably you can say;
日本がなつかしい。
日本が恋しい。

Excellent! Now I can say オウムは多分フィヨルドが恋しい。　

恋しくないです。死んでいます。

...which (hopefully) is from Monty Python's Parrot Sketch.

マイケル

EDIT: Wikipedia Japan has a page about it! It summarises it like this:-

死んだオウムはテレビ番組『空飛ぶモンティ・パイソン』の中の有名なスケッチである。

[adlerb9202]

Thank you. That's very helpful.

I think that the most interesting words are the ones that don't have a direct one to one correspondence with other languages. I'm still wrapping my mind around blue, あお.

-Bill

[community.japanese]

> マイケルさん、
your sentences are perfect anyway!
死んだオウムはフィヨルドが・・・・・恋しくないかもしれません

> Bill-san,
I agree; when there's no corresponding word(s), it's frustrating if I want to express in the language without translation,
but it's very interesting to understand how languages work.
At least, there's "different way" to express in the same situation And....why is あお bothering you?

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[adlerb9202]

Thanks for your reply.

As for あお, I've read that blue represents a different spectrum of colors than in does in the United States and other countries. When I'm in Japan I'm on the lookout for things that are blue, but I still don't fully appreciate what the color, あお, represents.

Bill

[ericf]

Some examples might help:

あおもの : vegetables, greens.
あおもり : the name of a forrest (and prefecture) in northern honshu.
あおっぱ : (new word for me) green snot!
あおねぎ : green spring onion
あおがえる : green frog

It seems as if the blue-green divide is just further over towards green than we're used to in the west.

[mmmason8967]

It seems as if the blue-green divide is just further over towards green than we're used to in the west.

Ooh, ooh -- I know this one...

Originally, Japanese did not distinguish between blue and green. That's not at all peculiar: many languages, including ancient Hebrew and Welsh, don't make the distinction or, at least, didn't until recently. So あお described both blue and green.

About a thousand years ago みどり appeared. It described the shade of pure green you see in fresh grass and leaves in spring. But it was seen as being a shade of あお in the same way that we see, for example, cyan or ultramarine as shades of blue, not completely separate colours.

During the twentieth century みどり has come to be seen more and more as a distinct colour. As far as I know, it means a pure shade of green, and あお still includes the blue-green shades that we think of as green. So, as you said, the place where あお ends and みどり starts is not the same as the place where blue ends and green starts.

マイケル

[ericf]

That's excellent. Thank you!


Now for bonus points ;-) do you have any idea how similar this usage of 青, for a broad spectrum of blue-green colours, is in China? I suspect it's rather similar. I'm thinking in particular of Qingdao/Tsingtao/青岛 which I believe means green island. (And how far the 音読み of 青：セイ、ショウ and the qing/tsing sounds have drifted apart!)

I know that, like Japanese, Mandarin also has a separate word for green: 绿/lǜ. Yes, that's the simplified version of 緑. I wonder if that word is also a later addition? This probably isn't the right place to ask :-)

[mmmason8967]

I have no idea, so no bonus points for me, I'm afraid. I wouldn't be surprised if they were similar, though, as the green-blue distinction seems to have been much less common than you'd expect, especially when you go back centuries.

I was driving round Huntingdon ring road yesterday (my weekends are always thrill-packed). Like all ring roads, it's basically one set of traffic lights after another; I had plenty of time to notice that the green colour is very much at the blue end of green--definitely あお, not みそり. I think I'll add あお and みそり to my list of words that have to be understood directly because translating them into English doesn't really work (words such as いただきます, よろしく and the like).

マイケル

[Teabag]

That's excellent. Thank you!

I suspect it's rather similar. I'm thinking in particular of Qingdao/Tsingtao/青岛 which I believe means green island.
This probably isn't the right place to ask

I'm not familiar with the fact how Qingdao (青岛) got its name. (Couldn't find anything on Google either.)(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qingdao) The only thing I know about Qingdao is probably its "Qingdao Beer."

Speaking of Green Island, there's actually an island off the eastern coast of Taiwan (where I'm from) called "Green Island," (綠島）which literally means GREEN ISLAND. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Island,_Taiwan

In the 2nd volume of the bestselling comic "日本人の知らない日本語” "Japanese that Japanese don't know (3 volumes so far)," there's an episode called "Color's Talk." You may find the answer to your question!! Check page 12 there. There's also a TV series based on this comic series.

Let me know if you need a summary. I'm just concerned you already have the book, and my summary would seem unnecessary. That's why I am not summarizing it now.

[community.japanese]

adlerb9202-san, エリックsan, マイケルsan, teabag-san,
kon'nichiwa

Originally, Japanese did not distinguish between blue and green.

マイケル

This made me laugh (I mean, the way you described)

That's very right!
It seems in antient Japan, there were only four colours: white, red, blue and black. So, .....a bit better than "TV"'s
three-colour thing

I have no knowledge about Chinese and Vietnamese, but apparently they also have similar "blue" usage about
green things. The city name 青島 might have the routes there
Or, because this city faces the sea, it could have something to do with water or the sea...

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[ericf]

I'm not familiar with the fact how Qingdao (青岛) got its name. (Couldn't find anything on Google either.)(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qingdao) The only thing I know about Qingdao is probably its "Qingdao Beer."

Speaking of Green Island, there's actually an island off the eastern coast of Taiwan (where I'm from) called "Green Island," (綠島）which literally means GREEN ISLAND. 8) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Island,_Taiwan

In the 2nd volume of the bestselling comic "日本人の知らない日本語” "Japanese that Japanese don't know (3 volumes so far)," there's an episode called "Color's Talk." You may find the answer to your question!! Check page 12 there. There's also a TV series based on this comic series.

Let me know if you need a summary. I'm just concerned you already have the book, and my summary would seem unnecessary.:? That's why I am not summarizing it now. :wink:

Teabag 你好。你好吗。
我没有那本书。但是我喜欢［色的话］知道。
Well that's exhausted what little I know, apologies for using simple characters.
A summary of the "Color's Talk" sounds interesting if you've got time. Actually the whole book sounds interesting - I might have to find it :-)
再见

[Teabag]

Teabag 你好。你好吗。
我没有那本书。但是我喜欢［色的话］知道。
再见

艾瑞克桑：
謝謝你這麼認真的花時間用中文回覆。為了你，再忙也要撥出時間寫出我說的那本書該頁的大意。
不知道全部用中文你看得懂不懂？我先用英文寫好了，如果你想要練習中文，可試著翻譯，
我很願意拜讀你的大作。

それじゃ、みてみましょう。
「日本人の知らない日本語　第二弾　12ページ　色の話」

According to the author, also a Japanese language teacher, Japanese surely did and does distinguish
between blue and green. In the olden days, blue ｢青｣originally meant all the cold colors,
such as blue, green, black.
i.e.

1. blue – 青海波（せいがいは）: literally, a pattern of waves in blue ocean
2. green – 青草＆青葉
3. black – 青眼（せいがん）http://goo.gl/0Th1x
　　　　 青鹿毛（あおかげ）Man! Old Japanese used 「青」 for BROWN! http://goo.gl/xWbl7

As for green, it doesn’t carry the concept of a color. Instead, it’s more of a feeling that an object brings to people.
i.e.
1. みどりの黒髪 (green black hair)：つやのある美しい黒髪 (shiny beautiful black hair)
2. みどり児 (green baby)：生まれたばかりの赤子 (a newborn baby)

We can conclude that the Japanese language has the tradition of describing the greenish stuff as blue.

This is basically what this page said about blue and green. I personally think this is extremely interesting,
yet confusing for Japanese learners. I should take no stance on whether it’s puzzling or not,
as in my language, green vegetables are 青菜 (literally blue veggie) and green onions as 青蔥 (blue onions).

[community.japanese]

エリックさん、Teabagさん、
　
So many Chinese letters

Yeah, we originally didn't have word (or maybe concept as well) for "green", and
they described it as "blue". And there're many concepts around this "green" and "blue"
like 緑の黒髪 ("Is it green, is it black, or what!?" )
Well, I suppose antient Japanese had to think of the best way to describe some new colour concepts
with existing 4 (ONLY!) colours and made up a lot of interesting words

We use the word "blue" for "young" and/or "inmature".
まだまだ青いな means "you're still young", "you're still inmature" and/or "you're still semi-professional"
if it's used to describe a person.
If it's about fruits or veg, it just means it's still hard and not good to eat yet

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com