Romaji vs. Kanji

[lantia]

Hello everyone! ^^

I have recently mastered kana (well...at least I believe I have ) so I moved up to learn kanji. However I´m completely lost there Since I´m only studying by myself, with all the help I can get from japanesepod101.com and other resources (j dramas, movies, anime/manga) I can´t grasp the basics much. And...let´s just say kanji itself is an "art" way beyond my writing (painting ) skills.
For me to really start learning japanese, I feel like needing to master the kanji first, since I learn languages mostly by reading books (and listening to the music, or the movies...) which is difficul to do without that knowledge x)

Somebody advised me to learn kanji along with the vocabulary, not separately - just kanji + readings + example words. It sounds reasonable and I got a feeling it just might work, but there comes the same problem again. There are kanji easy to remember, to write down, those most basic ones which are covered in the kanji textbook I have. Those, and some more difficult ones up to 10 strokes. But how am I suppose to learn all the other kanji those words consist of? I´d always mess up the stroke order, not to mention it would heavily differ from the written version itself.

Is there any (preferably) free resource, where I can find kanji look up consisting at least of the written version + stroke order? The print version is so confusing if I am supposed to write it down...it turns out wrong all the time.

If you guys know about something like that, or you have a better tip for making my incapable hands and worthless brain learn kanji, please let me know ^_^

[Javizy]

If you learn a lot from reading, then good old Heisig's Remembering the Kanji will give you what you need to start learning to read in the way you describe: through vocabulary. The alternatives tend to take a lot longer before they allow you to start reading ungraded texts, which will really disadvantage you by the sounds of it. Heisig includes stroke order, and builds up from simpler characters to more difficult ones. A lot of the time, instead of learning a difficult 20-stroke character, you're actually just adding 5 strokes to one you already know. Imagine learning 質 before 貝 and 斤

After you finish the book, you can systematically review words using http://smart.fm/ or http://ichi2.net/anki/ Somebody has premade a spreadsheet (which you can import into anki) of the 6000 most common words ordered by kanji at this forum http://forum.koohii.com/index.php You'll also find more information and help about Remembering the Kanji.

[daraconn3460]

For me to really start learning japanese, I feel like needing to master the kanji first, since I learn languages mostly by reading books (and listening to the music, or the movies...) which is difficul to do without that knowledge x)

That is how you are used to learning other languages. But you will not be able to learn Japanese that way. This inability to read is a huge disadvantage in learning Japanese, relative to learning Italian, for example.

You will learn kanji alongside the other facets of the language (grammar, vocabulary, etc.) You can't master kanji first as a preparation for learning Japanese, in the way that you would learn the Cyrillic alphabet as a preparation for learning Bulgarian.

It just takes years of hard work, patience and determination. After years of study you still may not be able to read a newspaper. The only short-cut to learning more quickly is to go and live in Japan for a period of 8 months or more.

Somebody advised me to learn kanji along with the vocabulary, not separately - just kanji + readings + example words. It sounds reasonable and I got a feeling it just might work, but there comes the same problem again. There are kanji easy to remember, to write down, those most basic ones which are covered in the kanji textbook I have. Those, and some more difficult ones up to 10 strokes. But how am I suppose to learn all the other kanji those words consist of? I´d always mess up the stroke order, not to mention it would heavily differ from the written version itself.

How are you supposed to learn? There are numerous methods and learning aids, including textbooks, flash cards, Java programs for mobile phones, and so on. Usually you start by learning simple kanji one at a time, practising writing each one over and over until you remember it. This is a very good starting point. But this method doesn't scale well; after you have learned 100-200 symbols by this method you'll realise that it's just not fast enough. After that you will use flash cards and your passive knowledge (ability to recognise) will quickly far outstrip your active knowledge (ability to reproduce).

A lot of people recommend "Remembering the Kanji" by Heisig. I am not familiar with it but it's supposed to be a very good method if followed correctly.

Two general points I would make:
- you get a false impression of kanji when you are first learning them. You start by learning dozens of simple characters, and you think that there are thousands of such forms, ever more complex. But in fact most of the kanji are made up of simpler kanji, in ways which often carry information about their sound and their meaning. So a kanji that looks scarily complex at first sight, for example: 潮, is made up of three parts: water+wheel+moon = "tide"! So it's actually easy to remember even though it has 15 strokes.

- kanji don't (usually) stand in splendid isolation. They are combined together to form words. It is simply not enough to learn the sounds and meanings of each kanji - you have to learn to read words made up of 2 or more kanji. This makes a nonsense of the question "how many kanji do you know?" A student could learn 時 and 計 but not be able to read or understand 時計 (a watch).

If you guys know about something like that, or you have a better tip for making my incapable hands and worthless brain learn kanji, please let me know ^_^

Your brain and hands are no more incapable than anyone else's. Everyone has the indignity of writing childishly when they try to learn this unfamiliar script. Anyway the need to write kanji (as opposed to reading them) is less than it used to be - the computer does a very good job of selecting the correct kanji for you.


The most important thing is to take pleasure in learning Japanese. It is a very long-term project and when progress is slow, you have to give yourself credit for every little step along the way. I have been at it for years and my ability is still very limited.

[Javizy]

That is how you are used to learning other languages. But you will not be able to learn Japanese that way. This inability to read is a huge disadvantage in learning Japanese, relative to learning Italian, for example.

...

It just takes years of hard work, patience and determination. After years of study you still may not be able to read a newspaper. The only short-cut to learning more quickly is to go and live in Japan for a period of 8 months or more.

It's actually surprising how quickly you can bridge the gap nowadays. You've probably heard the statistic about 1000 or so characters making up 90% of written texts. There are people who use Heisig just to learn this set of characters (which can be done in about a month at 30/day), and then something like the 6000 flashcards I mentioned above, which cover commonly used vocabulary containing the characters. At my rate of study, that would take seven months to get through (about 30/day). So, in eight months, with less than 45-minutes study per day, you've got a pretty decent base to start tackling reading whatever you want, and start on the next 1000 kanji. There are people who can handle much more than 30 a day as well... The sky's the limit I guess.

Of course, you still need to find time to learn grammar and practice pronunciation. Unfortunately for me, I didn't know about methods like the above, so my progress has been much slower...

[daraconn3460]

After you finish the book, you can systematically review words using http://smart.fm/ or http://ichi2.net/anki/ Somebody has premade a spreadsheet (which you can import into anki) of the 6000 most common words ordered by kanji at this forum http://forum.koohii.com/index.php You'll also find more information and help about Remembering the Kanji.

Hi Javizy,

I've been self-studying Japanese (not very effectively) for years, recently passed JLPT3, and can't read anything. Well, that's an exaggeration. Often I can read a whole sentence in a magazine, because I happen to know all the kanji in that particular sentence. But I don't know of any texts intended for Japanese readers that would be accessible to me.

I would really like to "close that gap", as you put it, because I also (like lantia) normally learn languages by reading, and I am convinced that once I can start reading in Japanese, my learning will really accelerate.

So I would really appreciate your help and advice with three things:
- can you please give me a link to that spreadsheet with 6000 vocab items on the kohii forum (or tell me how to find it on that forum)?
- do you think it would make any sense for me, at this stage of my learning, to get hold of "Remembering the Kanji" and work my way through it? I already know some hundreds of kanji to a greater or lesser extent.
- can you suggest or recommend any reading materials that are relatively easy to read and might be accessible to me (at JLPT3 level)?

Thanks,

Dara

[Javizy]

So I would really appreciate your help and advice with three things:
- can you please give me a link to that spreadsheet with 6000 vocab items on the kohii forum (or tell me how to find it on that forum)?
- do you think it would make any sense for me, at this stage of my learning, to get hold of "Remembering the Kanji" and work my way through it? I already know some hundreds of kanji to a greater or lesser extent.
- can you suggest or recommend any reading materials that are relatively easy to read and might be accessible to me (at JLPT3 level)?

The link is here http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=5301 If you've been studying for a long time, you'll probably know a lot of the words though.

Even if you know 900, there's still 1100 to go. Ultimately, it's going to depend on you, so why not see how you get on with it with this free sample containing the first 276 characters. You'll find a Heisig deck in Anki (File > Download > Shared Deck), so be sure to review as you learn to cement everything. It's also a good way to polish your stories. If you fail a card after three days, then it's probably not very good!

If you only know a few hundred kanji, then you'll only be able to read text graded for JLPT3. However, as long as it has furigana, you'll be fine, and you'll still get some limited exposure to kanji. There are a ton of manga like this, so look around for something that interests you. I thought Death Note was good because it contains lots of real language and useful vocabulary.

[daraconn3460]

Thank you very much for your help, Javizy. I've been able to import the core 6000 file into Anki and started with 30 cards. I have also downloaded the free sample of RtK and will try it out.

Is there manga that's specifically graded for JLPT3, intended for learners like me? Where can I find it?

Or do you mean that manga like Death Note, while it's intended for Japanese readers, would be accessible to foreign learners?

I will be in Japan next weekend so if it can be found in regular bookshops I can try to pick something up.

[Javizy]

Is there manga that's specifically graded for JLPT3, intended for learners like me? Where can I find it?

Or do you mean that manga like Death Note, while it's intended for Japanese readers, would be accessible to foreign learners?

I will be in Japan next weekend so if it can be found in regular bookshops I can try to pick something up.

You should have a bit more faith in your ability. Just because you don't know kanji well enough to read, doesn't mean you can't break down the relatively simple sentence structure of your average manga. The language is confined to speech bubbles, so you rarely have too much to handle at once.

I mentioned Death Note, because aside from the unrealistic premise of the story, the tone is very serious and a good source to learn from. If you find the structure too difficult, then there are plenty of simpler alternatives. If you're going to be in Japan, then it'll be a great opportunity to browse and find something both interesting and suited to your level.

Remember, you don't have to do understand every word. If you can understand what's going on, then it's worth reading. It can only get easier! I started off with Doraemon without having studied much, and although there was lots of new vocabulary (not a bad thing if you add it to Anki) the sentences were easy enough for me to break down. Maybe you could get a couple of volumes of Doraemon or Yotsuba (recommended by others on the forum) to get a sense of your reading level. Then you can move up from there.

Whatever you do, don't be afraid of real Japanese! JLPT books are good for practising questions for the exam, but when you get past JLPT3 like you, I think it's safe to start expanding your horizons and having some fun. Good luck!

[Falconn]

dude I figured I'd stick to romaji first then learn how to write... because you know you learn to speak english before you write it I'm guessing that wasn't the best idea hahahaah

[angelette9225680]

Although this conversation has veered into the direction of the best method to learn kanji, I would like to throw in my two cents as far as learning romaji is concerned. There are some proponents of their use as an introduction for a speaking-first course. Now, in the context of a class using native speakers determined to avoid an accent and be understood very well, this is all well and good.

However, for self-study romaji are very risky, particularly because most independent learners will not get much speaking practice until they have already developed their bad habits. (hisses at those pesky r's...) Although as it has been said, learning kana with a romaji reference will not teach you the true and proper way to pronounce r's, yoon, shi, chi, desu, and so on, one will encounter even more problems when reading romaji.

For example, the expression "no you". In hiragana you can easily see it as "noh - yo~~". However when reading romaji, the English speaker will be itching to say it as "no yuu". In romanization systems which represent ou sounds as oo, this is even worse. (This is the only thing that kept me from becoming interested in the "yookoso" series.) Another such problem is caused by double e's in words. When I was a young fangirl, I pronounced onee-sama as oh-knee-sama - identical to the completely different word onii-sama! In the business-based situations that romaji-only courses often target, imagine how disastrous such an error could be.

Furthermore, if you have even the slightest intention of learning how to read and write, you will have to learn kana to navigate almost all resources. So you might as well put the time in for that at the outset.