Komedonya no Orei

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

I53:

おじいさんと息子は沖に出て魚をとり、おばあさんと嫁は機(はた)を織(お)る毎日でし
Ojīsan to musuko wa oki ni dete sakana o tori, obāsan to yome wa hata o oru mainichi deshita.
Every day the old man and his son used to go fishing far out at sea, and the old woman and her daughter-in-law would weave.

hata = loom
oru = to weave

You don't weave a loom. You weave WITH a loom. You use a loom to weave. So why does the text say "hata o oru" instead of "hata de oru"?

おみそやお米を買おうと、お米屋へ行ったら、そこの旦那(だんな)が声をかけてきました.
O-miso ya o-kome o kaō to, o-komeya e ittara, sokono danna ga koe o kakete kimashita.
When they stopped by a rice shop to buy miso and rice, the shopkeeper spoke with them.

Why is "kau" in the volitional form?

It is followed by "to" which means "and then" however the next part of the sentence says "when they went to the shop." I thought they were already in the shop? Are there two shops, a miso shop and a rice shop?

I hate this damn "kakeru". The dictionary gives a million different definitions but none of them ever fit the sentence. What does it mean here?

はい、わしたちは危ういところで島に逃れられました。
hai, washitachiha abunau itokorode shima ni nogare raremashita.
Luckily, we managed to get to an island.

This is a typo. It should say "ayaui tokoro de". "ayui tokoro" means "dangerous place" but I'm not sure how the particle works here. "De" here seems to be being used as "because" or "from" but that's not what it means.

そうでしたか、それはよろしゅうございました。
soudeshitaka, sorehayoroshuugozaimashita.
Did you? That’s good.

The dictionary says "gozaimasu" is "to be". Like "iru" then. But "iru" would be incorrect if used like this.

If it's "de gozaimasu" which is similar to "desu" then why is the "de" part removed?

なにか、心当りでもありなさるのか？
nani ka, kokoro atari de mo arinasaru no ka?
Is there something on your mind?

nanika - something
kokoro atari - idea(?)
de mo - even, or something, also in, but, however, even so
arinasaru no - "aru" (to be) + "nasaru" (to do) + "no" (nominaliser)

A basic understanding of the words gives me a reasonable idea of what this is saying - "Are you having an idea?" or in natural English, as the translation says, "Is there something on your mind?" but I'm puzzled by the way the sentence is formed - Why doesn't "nanika" take a particle? Why is "de mo" used? Why is the verb "arinasaru" rather than just "aru"?

そうじゃったか。
sou jatta ka.
Yes, I see what you mean.

"Jatta"? Is this from the verb "chau"? And literally meaning, "So, that's everything"?

If not, what verb is it from?

ごめんどうをおかけしますが、わたしをその島へ連れて行ってもらえますまいか？
gomendouwookakeshimasuga, watashiwosono shima he tsure teitte moraemasumaika?
I'm sorry to trouble you, but could you please take me out to that island?

Mendou - trouble, difficulty
Kake - from "kakeru" - to burden someone(?)

Just double checking that I have the meanings right. Seems to make sense.

二人は死骸を乗せて再び港へ引き返し、立派な葬式(そうしき)にも立ちあいました。
futari ha shigai wo nose te futatabi minato he biki kaeshi, rippa na soushiki( soushiki) nimo tachi aimashita.
The old man and his son took the body on board and returned to the harbor again. They also attended the great funeral.

This is a typo, it should say "hikikaeshi". "Kaesu" is attached to the ~masu stem to mean "to do again". The verb it's attached to is "hiku" but there is no definition of this word that fits the sentence. The only thing that comes close is "to pull a vehicle" but you sail a boat, it isn't being pulled.

あなたたちには、すっかりお世話になりました。わたしの心からのお礼を港に用意しました。どうか受け取って下さい。
anatatachiniha, sukkario sewa ninarimashita. watashino kokoro karanoo rei wo minato ni youishi mashita. douka uketotte kudasai.
Thank you for everything. I've prepared something for you at the harbor as a token of my sincere appreciation. Please accept it.

I'd understand "watashi no kokoro kara orei" and "watashi no kokoro no orei" as "gratitude from my heart" and "my heart's gratitude" respectively but "watashi no kokoro kara no orei"? Never seen that before. Why are there two particles instead of one?

I'm also confused about the word order. The direct object of the sentence isn't near the verb. "Minato ni, watashi no kokoro kara no orei o youi shimashita" makes more sense to me. Why is "minato ni" randomly inserted in between the object and the verb?

Even though I said that makes more sense to me, it literally translates as "at the harbour, I prepared my gratitude." Is that the gist of this sentence? Because he didn't prepare his gratitude, he prepared a gift that represents his gratitude. Has a word been excluded somewhere? If a word has been excluded, such as "Watashi no kokoro kara no orei o minato ni, nanika o youi shimashita" then why does "orei" take the "o" particle, marking it as the direct object of the verb?

いや、お礼なんぞいりません。
iya, o rei nanzoirimasen.
Oh, it's nothing. You don't need to do that.

The dictionary gives two definitions for "nanzo" -

1. 何ぞ - something, what, why; how
2. なんぞ - et cetera; etc.; and the like; and so forth

Logically, I'd guess that the first was correct. Literally, "Something is not needed." However, the sentence doesn't use kanji, it only uses kana like the second definition. Which is it?

いいえ、あなたたちは息子をていねいにうめて下さっただけでなく、持っていたお金も、そっくりそのままそえて下さっていた
iie, anatatachiha musuko woteineiniumete kudasa ttadakedenaku, motte itao kin mo, sokkurisonomamasoete kudasa tteita.
Not only did you bury my son respectfully, but you put all the money he carried together with his body.

The dictionary says that "okin" means "money (written before an amount)" however there is no amount written here. Therefore it doesn't mean money? However, it can mean "gold". Is the text saying that they buried the man with his gold?

その上、死んだ息子がもっていた百両(ひゃくりょう→七百万円ほど)以上もの金をくれたのです。
sono ue, shin da musuko gamotteita hyaku ryou ( hyakuryou(kigou) shichi hyakuman'en hodo) ijou mono kin mokuretanodesu.
Furthermore, he gave them more than 100 ryo (it is more than 700 million yen).

Why is this "hyaku ryou ijou mo no kin mo kureta no desu" rather than just ""hyaku ryou ijou mo kin mo kureta no desu"? What purpose does the "no" serve? I'm guessing that "kin" means "gold" again, the English translation ignores that part.

二人はたちまち大金持ちになり、嫁とおばあさんの待っている家へ帰っていきました
futari hatachimachi ooganemochi chininari, yome toobaasanno matte iru ie heto kaette ikimashita.
Instantly, they became very rich, and then went back home where the old woman and daughter-in-law were waiting for them.

I think this is "chi ni nari" with "nari" being the ~masu stem form of "naru". If that is the case, what does "chi" mean? If it's not the case, what does this word mean?

Why does "no" come after "obaasan"?

Why does "matte iru" come before "ie"? The house isn't waiting. Shouldn't "matte iru" come before "yome to obaasan"?

Why does "to" come after "he"?

Yuki-sensei, if you're going to reply to this post, please use romaji.

[thegooseking]

Andyさん、

I can't answer all of your questions, but I'll start with these:-

It's a total guess, but: You weave with a loom, but you also weave through a loom (you pass the warp through the loom) and across a loom (you pass the weft parallel to the loom), and I suspect it's one of those that を is referring to here, rather than being a direct object marker. That does kind of rely on 織る being considered a verb of motion, but I can see why that might be the case.

Simply, gozaimasu is the honorific form of 'aru'. 'Degozaimasu' is therefore strictly speaking the honorific form of 'dearu', not 'desu', but since they have pretty much the same meaning and differ only in tone (which the honorific changes anyway), people say it's the honorific of 'desu'.

I think 'jatta' is an informal way of saying 'deatta', which is the past tense of 'dearu', which, as I've said, is roughly equivalent to 'desu'. You can think of 'deatta' as basically the same as 'datta' - it just has a more literary tone.

お礼なんぞいりません is translated as "you don't need to do that". Someone who was translating it more literally might say, "you don't need to do anything like that". Or even more literally: "Nothing like thanks is necessary." So it is the latter meaning of なんぞ, but it's not something that translates into English very naturally.

小狼

[mmmason8967]

You don't weave a loom. You weave WITH a loom. You use a loom to weave. So why does the text say "hata o oru" instead of "hata de oru"?

I agree with 小狼さん on this one

おみそやお米を買おうと、お米屋へ行ったら、そこの旦那(だんな)が声をかけてきました.
O-miso ya o-kome o kaō to, o-komeya e ittara, sokono danna ga koe o kakete kimashita.
When they stopped by a rice shop to buy miso and rice, the shopkeeper spoke with them.

Why is "kau" in the volitional form?

It is followed by "to" which means "and then" however the next part of the sentence says "when they went to the shop." I thought they were already in the shop? Are there two shops, a miso shop and a rice shop?

The volitional form covers intention, and the to in this case I think works like the to in to omoimasu, so I think the first phrase is something like "Intending to buy miso and rice, ..."

なにか、心当りでもありなさるのか？
nani ka, kokoro atari de mo arinasaru no ka?
Is there something on your mind?

nanika - something
kokoro atari - idea(?)
de mo - even, or something, also in, but, however, even so
arinasaru no - "aru" (to be) + "nasaru" (to do) + "no" (nominaliser)

A basic understanding of the words gives me a reasonable idea of what this is saying - "Are you having an idea?" or in natural English, as the translation says, "Is there something on your mind?" but I'm puzzled by the way the sentence is formed - Why doesn't "nanika" take a particle? Why is "de mo" used? Why is the verb "arinasaru" rather than just "aru"?

I think it's using de aru, the literary form of desu. When used in speech there's always a wa or a mo between de and aru. And it's often negative, as in de wa nai or nan de mo nai. In this case it appears as de mo ari.

二人は死骸を乗せて再び港へ引き返し、立派な葬式(そうしき)にも立ちあいました。
futari ha shigai wo nose te futatabi minato he biki kaeshi, rippa na soushiki( soushiki) nimo tachi aimashita.
The old man and his son took the body on board and returned to the harbor again. They also attended the great funeral.

This is a typo, it should say "hikikaeshi". "Kaesu" is attached to the ~masu stem to mean "to do again". The verb it's attached to is "hiku" but there is no definition of this word that fits the sentence. The only thing that comes close is "to pull a vehicle" but you sail a boat, it isn't being pulled.

It's one word: hikikaesu.

あなたたちには、すっかりお世話になりました。わたしの心からのお礼を港に用意しました。どうか受け取って下さい。
anatatachiniha, sukkario sewa ninarimashita. watashino kokoro karanoo rei wo minato ni youishi mashita. douka uketotte kudasai.
Thank you for everything. I've prepared something for you at the harbor as a token of my sincere appreciation. Please accept it.

I'd understand "watashi no kokoro kara orei" and "watashi no kokoro no orei" as "gratitude from my heart" and "my heart's gratitude" respectively but "watashi no kokoro kara no orei"? Never seen that before. Why are there two particles instead of one?

kokoro kara is a phrase meaning "from the bottom of [my] heart". So watashi no kokorokara no o-rei is just a standard A no B no C construction.

I'm also confused about the word order. The direct object of the sentence isn't near the verb. "Minato ni, watashi no kokoro kara no orei o youi shimashita" makes more sense to me. Why is "minato ni" randomly inserted in between the object and the verb?

Even though I said that makes more sense to me, it literally translates as "at the harbour, I prepared my gratitude." Is that the gist of this sentence? Because he didn't prepare his gratitude, he prepared a gift that represents his gratitude. Has a word been excluded somewhere? If a word has been excluded, such as "Watashi no kokoro kara no orei o minato ni, nanika o youi shimashita" then why does "orei" take the "o" particle, marking it as the direct object of the verb?

youi suru = to make arrangements, to lay something out. So minato ni youi shimashita is "I've prepared something at the harbour". I'm guessing that youi suru can take a direct object, and that the direct object is the purpose, reason or point of the arrangements; in this case that's watashi no kokorokara orei. But really I'm just guessing this last bit.

二人はたちまち大金持ちになり、嫁とおばあさんの待っている家へ帰っていきました
futari hatachimachi ooganemochi chininari, yome toobaasanno matte iru ie heto kaette ikimashita.
Instantly, they became very rich, and then went back home where the old woman and daughter-in-law were waiting for them.

I think this is "chi ni nari" with "nari" being the ~masu stem form of "naru". If that is the case, what does "chi" mean? If it's not the case, what does this word mean?

It's a typo, I think. The Japanese text says ooganemochi ni nari.

Why does "no" come after "obaasan"?

I'm not really sure about this, but I think it's because if it said yome to obaasan ga matte iru ie it would be saying which house they went to, but changing it to no makes it describe the situation there rather than specifying which particular house it is.

Why does "matte iru" come before "ie"? The house isn't waiting. Shouldn't "matte iru" come before "yome to obaasan"?

The basic sentence is ie e kaette kimashita on top of which there's an extra explanatory bit. In English the extra bit comes second, usually starting with a "wh" word (which/who/where). So in English the structure is "A, wh-word B", but in Japanese it's "B A". If you like, the sentence is like this: ie e kaette kimishita, where yome to obaasan no matte iru.

Why does "to" come after "he"?

Another typo, I think. The Japanese text says: ie e kaette kimashita.

マイケル

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

It's a total guess, but: You weave with a loom, but you also weave through a loom (you pass the warp through the loom) and across a loom (you pass the weft parallel to the loom), and I suspect it's one of those that を is referring to here, rather than being a direct object marker. That does kind of rely on 織る being considered a verb of motion, but I can see why that might be the case.

I see what you're getting at. It does make sense if "oru" is a verb of motion, as you say.

Simply, gozaimasu is the honorific form of 'aru'. 'Degozaimasu' is therefore strictly speaking the honorific form of 'dearu', not 'desu', but since they have pretty much the same meaning and differ only in tone (which the honorific changes anyway), people say it's the honorific of 'desu'.

So, do we use "de gozaimasu" when it follows a noun and "gozaimasu" minus the "de" when it follows an adjective?

I think 'jatta' is an informal way of saying 'deatta', which is the past tense of 'dearu', which, as I've said, is roughly equivalent to 'desu'. You can think of 'deatta' as basically the same as 'datta' - it just has a more literary tone.

Great. A Japanese friend on Skype hinted that may be the case after I made this post.

お礼なんぞいりません is translated as "you don't need to do that". Someone who was translating it more literally might say, "you don't need to do anything like that". Or even more literally: "Nothing like thanks is necessary." So it is the latter meaning of なんぞ, but it's not something that translates into English very naturally.

I don't know why I was confused about that. Seems silly now. Maybe I just misread it but I couldn't figure out how "etc" would fit.

Why is "kau" in the volitional form? It is followed by "to" which means "and then" however the next part of the sentence says "when they went to the shop." I thought they were already in the shop? Are there two shops, a miso shop and a rice shop?

The volitional form covers intention, and the to in this case I think works like the to in to omoimasu, so I think the first phrase is something like "Intending to buy miso and rice, ..."

I think of "to" as a verbal quotation mark.

"Certainly" the shopkeeper said - Danna ga "kashikomarimashita" to itta.
"She's ugly" I thought - Watashi wa, "kanojo ga minikui desu" to omoimashita.

You're saying the volitional clause here is a thought?

O-miso ya o-kome o kaō to, o-komeya e ittara, sokono danna ga koe o kakete kimashita.
"Let's buy some rice at the shop" When they stopped by a rice shop to buy miso and rice, the shopkeeper spoke with them

Sounds odd when translated into English; very run-on sentencey considering the comma rather than a full stop, but if that's how it works in Japanese then it's one of those differences I'll have to get used to.

なにか、心当りでもありなさるのか？
nani ka, kokoro atari de mo arinasaru no ka?
Is there something on your mind?

nanika - something
kokoro atari - idea(?)
de mo - even, or something, also in, but, however, even so
arinasaru no - "aru" (to be) + "nasaru" (to do) + "no" (nominaliser)

A basic understanding of the words gives me a reasonable idea of what this is saying - "Are you having an idea?" or in natural English, as the translation says, "Is there something on your mind?" but I'm puzzled by the way the sentence is formed - Why doesn't "nanika" take a particle? Why is "de mo" used? Why is the verb "arinasaru" rather than just "aru"?

I think it's using de aru, the literary form of desu. When used in speech there's always a wa or a mo between de and aru. And it's often negative, as in de wa nai or nan de mo nai. In this case it appears as de mo ari.

I'd never have got that one by myself. Thanks.

Having listened to the audio again, "nanika" sounds as if it's being used as a kind of "what..." and probably doesn't need a particle. And the "nasaru" bit adds a nuance of something in progress, rather than something static? Actively having an idea rather than the idea just being there? That'd be my guess.

二人は死骸を乗せて再び港へ引き返し、立派な葬式(そうしき)にも立ちあいました。
futari ha shigai wo nose te futatabi minato he biki kaeshi, rippa na soushiki( soushiki) nimo tachi aimashita.
The old man and his son took the body on board and returned to the harbor again. They also attended the great funeral.

This is a typo, it should say "hikikaeshi". "Kaesu" is attached to the ~masu stem to mean "to do again". The verb it's attached to is "hiku" but there is no definition of this word that fits the sentence. The only thing that comes close is "to pull a vehicle" but you sail a boat, it isn't being pulled.

It's one word: hikikaesu.

D'oh. Probably should have thought of that myself before leaping to a more complicated conclusion.

あなたたちには、すっかりお世話になりました。わたしの心からのお礼を港に用意しました。どうか受け取って下さい。
anatatachiniha, sukkario sewa ninarimashita. watashino kokoro karanoo rei wo minato ni youishi mashita. douka uketotte kudasai.
Thank you for everything. I've prepared something for you at the harbor as a token of my sincere appreciation. Please accept it.

I'd understand "watashi no kokoro kara orei" and "watashi no kokoro no orei" as "gratitude from my heart" and "my heart's gratitude" respectively but "watashi no kokoro kara no orei"? Never seen that before. Why are there two particles instead of one?

kokoro kara is a phrase meaning "from the bottom of [my] heart". So watashi no kokorokara no o-rei is just a standard A no B no C construction.

Great.

I'm also confused about the word order. The direct object of the sentence isn't near the verb. "Minato ni, watashi no kokoro kara no orei o youi shimashita" makes more sense to me. Why is "minato ni" randomly inserted in between the object and the verb?

Even though I said that makes more sense to me, it literally translates as "at the harbour, I prepared my gratitude." Is that the gist of this sentence? Because he didn't prepare his gratitude, he prepared a gift that represents his gratitude. Has a word been excluded somewhere? If a word has been excluded, such as "Watashi no kokoro kara no orei o minato ni, nanika o youi shimashita" then why does "orei" take the "o" particle, marking it as the direct object of the verb?

youi suru = to make arrangements, to lay something out. So minato ni youi shimashita is "I've prepared something at the harbour". I'm guessing that youi suru can take a direct object, and that the direct object is the purpose, reason or point of the arrangements; in this case that's watashi no kokorokara orei. But really I'm just guessing this last bit.

"Minato ni youi shimashita" is clear enough, though I'm puzzled as to why the location is randomly inserted between the object of the verb and the verb itself. I can't think of a reason why it's incorrect, it just looks weird to me. Like the sentence doesn't flow as smoothly.

二人はたちまち大金持ちになり、嫁とおばあさんの待っている家へ帰っていきました
futari hatachimachi ooganemochi chininari, yome toobaasanno matte iru ie heto kaette ikimashita.
Instantly, they became very rich, and then went back home where the old woman and daughter-in-law were waiting for them.

I think this is "chi ni nari" with "nari" being the ~masu stem form of "naru". If that is the case, what does "chi" mean? If it's not the case, what does this word mean?

It's a typo, I think. The Japanese text says ooganemochi ni nari.

Great. I'm getting used to those.

Why does "no" come after "obaasan"?

I'm not really sure about this, but I think it's because if it said yome to obaasan ga matte iru ie it would be saying which house they went to, but changing it to no makes it describe the situation there rather than specifying which particular house it is.

I need to read this again tomorrow when I'm less tired. It's not making much sense to me now. Do you still think "no" is possessive here?

Why does "matte iru" come before "ie"? The house isn't waiting. Shouldn't "matte iru" come before "yome to obaasan"?

The basic sentence is ie e kaette kimashita on top of which there's an extra explanatory bit. In English the extra bit comes second, usually starting with a "wh" word (which/who/where). So in English the structure is "A, wh-word B", but in Japanese it's "B A". If you like, the sentence is like this: ie e kaette kimishita, where yome to obaasan no matte iru.

Shouldn't "iru" be in the ~te form then?

"yome to obaasan no matte itte, ie e kaette ikimashita"

Why does "to" come after "he"?

Another typo, I think. The Japanese text says: ie e kaette kimashita.

マイケル

[community.japanese]

Andy san,　小狼さん、マイケルさん

I think you have had a good discussion.

おじいさんと息子は沖に出て魚をとり、おばあさんと嫁は機(はた)を織(お)る毎日でし
The kanji 機 should be 旗which means cloth and fabric.

おみそやお米を買おうと、お米屋へ行ったら、そこの旦那(だんな)が声をかけてきました.
と思って is omitted after 買おう which means “I am willing to buy” and as you know てdoesn’t show tense and the tense should be the same as the ending.
You can buy rice, miso ans so on at a お米屋.
声をかける is an idiom which means “call out to a person/ address a person”.

はい、わしたちは危ういところで島に逃れられました
Abunau itokorode is typo. I am sorry.
危ういところで is same as 危ういところでしたが.

そうでしたか、それはよろしゅうございました。
ございます has some functions and one of those is humble expression of です.
So, do we use "de gozaimasu" when it follows a noun and "gozaimasu" minus the "de" when it follows an adjective?
You need de after them.
Noun + de + gozaimasu 花でございます
i-adjective + de + gozaimasu　小さいでございます
na-adjective + de + gozaimasu　綺麗でございます

なにか、心当りでもありなさるのか？
Direct translation doesn’t work sometimes as you know.
I think "Are you having an idea?” is a good translation.
In casual conversation particles are often omitted.
Instead of でも　you can use がhowever, when you use が, you ensure the person have an idea. Nevertheless, the speaker is still wondering if the person has an idea or not here.
なさる　is one of respectful expression so it indicates the relationship between them. However I don’t read the story so I don’t know about the relationship.

そうじゃったか。
そうじゃった means　そうでした and it’s a spoken language.
It’s usually used by old people in old stories.

ごめんどうをおかけしますが、わたしをその島へ連れて行ってもらえますまいか？
Mendou - trouble, difficulty
Kake - from "kakeru" - to burden someone(?) Yes, they are right.

二人は死骸を乗せて再び港へ引き返し、立派な葬式(そうしき)にも立ちあいました。
I am sorry biki kaeshi is typo.
引き返す is same as 戻る．

あなたたちには、すっかりお世話になりました。わたしの心からのお礼を港に用意しました。どうか受け取って下さい。
Regarding usage of paticles,マイケルさんis correct.
As long as you can use appropriate particles the word order doesn’t matter in the Japanese language.
わたしの心からのお礼 indicates a present however, if you say プレゼントを用意しました, it is too direct for Japanese people. Therefore we should not say プレゼントを用意しました. It’s a euphemism. プレゼントrepresents the person’s gratitude.

いや、お礼なんぞいりません。
なんぞ is same as なんてwhich indicates “unexpected, surprising”.
If you express a word of appreciation, I would be surprised. What I did is not worth saying so. It means it’s not much.

いいえ、あなたたちは息子をていねいにうめて下さっただけでなく、持っていたお金も、そっくりそのままそえて下さっていた
I am sorry it must be おかね which means “money” but this story was written long time ago so money should be gold at that time.
Yes, “they buried the man with his gold (money)” is correct.

その上、死んだ息子がもっていた百両(ひゃくりょう→七百万円ほど)以上もの金をくれたのです。
In this sentence the の after 以上is necessary.
The particle もindicates emphasis of 百両（large amount）.
Money or gold doesn’t matter because gold was money then anyway.

二人はたちまち大金持ちになり、嫁とおばあさんの待っている家へ帰っていきました
大金持ち is one word which means “rich (millionaire) ” then the meaning is “the person became really rich”.
In noun modifying clause you can replace がwith の.
The two people went to “the house which a wife and an old lady are waiting” 嫁とおばあさんの待っている家　is same as 嫁とおばあさんが待っている家.
I am sorry “iru ie heto” is typo.

Yuki　由紀
Team JapanesePod101.com

[mmmason8967]

おじいさんと息子は沖に出て魚をとり、おばあさんと嫁は機(はた)を織(お)る毎日でし
The kanji 機 should be 旗which means cloth and fabric.

Ah, that explains that one!

Why is "kau" in the volitional form? It is followed by "to" which means "and then" however the next part of the sentence says "when they went to the shop." I thought they were already in the shop? Are there two shops, a miso shop and a rice shop?

The volitional form covers intention, and the to in this case I think works like the to in to omoimasu, so I think the first phrase is something like "Intending to buy miso and rice, ..."

I think of "to" as a verbal quotation mark.

"Certainly" the shopkeeper said - Danna ga "kashikomarimashita" to itta.
"She's ugly" I thought - Watashi wa, "kanojo ga minikui desu" to omoimashita.

Well, yes, but I don't think it's terribly helpful to look at it that way. It's like to marks a given circumstance. In haru ni naru to sakura ga sakimasu, the to is marking a particular circumstance and the sentence goes on to say what happens in the circumstance: when Spring comes, the cherry trees blossom.

But I digress...

You're saying the volitional clause here is a thought?

O-miso ya o-kome o kaō to, o-komeya e ittara, sokono danna ga koe o kakete kimashita.
"Let's buy some rice at the shop" When they stopped by a rice shop to buy miso and rice, the shopkeeper spoke with them

Sounds odd when translated into English; very run-on sentencey considering the comma rather than a full stop, but if that's how it works in Japanese then it's one of those differences I'll have to get used to.

The volitional can be translated two ways: there's "Let's buy some miso and rice" and then there's "I shall buy some miso and rice", which is a statement of intent. In this case I'm pretty sure it's the second--the statement of intent--that's being used. It's followed by to, which makes the phrase into a given circumstance, so I think it's like this:-

o-miso ya o-kome o kaou to, ...
Having decided to buy some miso and rice, ...

"Minato ni youi shimashita" is clear enough, though I'm puzzled as to why the location is randomly inserted between the object of the verb and the verb itself. I can't think of a reason why it's incorrect, it just looks weird to me. Like the sentence doesn't flow as smoothly.

The main point--the payload, if you like--of the sentence is minato ni youi shimashita, and the chosen sentence keeps these words together and saves them to the end, which (in my opinion) is exactly where the payload should be. So I disagree: the sentence flows nicely, I think.

Why does "no" come after "obaasan"?

I'm not really sure about this, but I think it's because if it said yome to obaasan ga matte iru ie it would be saying which house they went to, but changing it to no makes it describe the situation there rather than specifying which particular house it is.

I need to read this again tomorrow when I'm less tired. It's not making much sense to me now. Do you still think "no" is possessive here?

Well, I tend to think of no as 'categorising' rather than simply possessive. For example in boku no tomodachi no Ichiro, Ichiro is categorised as a friend and 'friend' is categorised as 'mine', so the first no is possessive but the second one isn't. I think the no in yome to obaasan no matte iru ie is categorising, not possessive.

In this case no is replacing ga and Yuki-sensei says that the phrase means the same thing whether you use no or ga. However, I think that ga tends to imply that you're being specific: for example, in Jack ga tateta ie isn't just any old house, it's the house that Jack built. So my feeling is that the phrase changes slightly depending on whether ga or no is used, somewhat along these lines:-

ga = they returned to the house that the women were waiting in.
no = they returned to the house, where the women were waiting.

Why does "matte iru" come before "ie"? The house isn't waiting. Shouldn't "matte iru" come before "yome to obaasan"?

The basic sentence is ie e kaette kimashita on top of which there's an extra explanatory bit. In English the extra bit comes second, usually starting with a "wh" word (which/who/where). So in English the structure is "A, wh-word B", but in Japanese it's "B A". If you like, the sentence is like this: ie e kaette kimishita, where yome to obaasan no matte iru.

Shouldn't "iru" be in the ~te form then?

"yome to obaasan no matte itte, ie e kaette ikimashita"

No, it shouldn't. The -te form links verbs with the same subject and the same tense. In this case the subject of matte iru is yome to obaasan and it's 'present progressive', while the subject of kaette ikimashita is futari (two other people) and it's 'past'.

マイケル

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

そうでしたか、それはよろしゅうございました。
ございます has some functions and one of those is humble expression of です.
So, do we use "de gozaimasu" when it follows a noun and "gozaimasu" minus the "de" when it follows an adjective?
You need de after them.
Noun + de + gozaimasu 花でございます
i-adjective + de + gozaimasu　小さいでございます
na-adjective + de + gozaimasu　綺麗でございます

So why doesn't the line from the dialogue have "de"?

[mmmason8967]

So why doesn't the line from the dialogue have "de"?

I think I can explain. First off, Yuki-sensei was answering the question that she quoted; to answer why doesn't the line from the dialogue have "de" it's probably best to go back to your original question from May 28.

そうでしたか、それはよろしゅうございました。
soudeshitaka, sorehayoroshuugozaimashita.
Did you? That’s good.

The dictionary says "gozaimasu" is "to be". Like "iru" then. But "iru" would be incorrect if used like this.

No, it's not like iru, it's like aru. Which helps with the follow-on question:-

If it's "de gozaimasu" which is similar to "desu" then why is the "de" part removed?

Yes, de gozaimasu is like de aru, which is a literary form of desu. But gozaimasu doesn't have to be preceded by de any more than aru or arimasu do. See also arigatou gozaimasu.

マイケル

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

So why doesn't the line from the dialogue have "de"?

I think I can explain. First off, Yuki-sensei was answering the question that she quoted; to answer why doesn't the line from the dialogue have "de" it's probably best to go back to your original question from May 28.

そうでしたか、それはよろしゅうございました。
soudeshitaka, sorehayoroshuugozaimashita.
Did you? That’s good.

The dictionary says "gozaimasu" is "to be". Like "iru" then. But "iru" would be incorrect if used like this.

No, it's not like iru, it's like aru. Which helps with the follow-on question:-

If it's "de gozaimasu" which is similar to "desu" then why is the "de" part removed?

Yes, de gozaimasu is like de aru, which is a literary form of desu. But gozaimasu doesn't have to be preceded by de any more than aru or arimasu do. See also arigatou gozaimasu.

マイケル

Doesn't that contradict what Yuki said? She said it needs "de" and you say it doesn't. Obviously you're right but I'm wondering what she was trying to say. I didn't understand it.

I don't know how it can be both like "aru" and like "desu" - they're used in entirely different ways. Replacing "gozaimasu" with "arimasu" in the sentence would make it incorrect.

When does "gozaimasu" take "de" and when can it be used without?

[mmmason8967]

Doesn't that contradict what Yuki said? She said it needs "de" and you say it doesn't. Obviously you're right but I'm wondering what she was trying to say. I didn't understand it.

Yuki-sensei said that one of the uses of gozaimasu "...is humble expression of desu" and then illustrated that usage with nouns, i-adjectives and na-adjectives. But I don't think the sentence is using gozaimasu to mean desu.

I don't know how it can be both like "aru" and like "desu" - they're used in entirely different ways. Replacing "gozaimasu" with "arimasu" in the sentence would make it incorrect.

The sentence uses a very familiar structure, although I don't understand the grammar behind it. If we're happy with these two...

　　arigatai　⇒　arigatou　⇒　arigatou gozaimasu
　　hayai　⇒　hayou　⇒　o-hayou gozaimasu

...then (despite having no idea how the grammar works) we should probably be happy with...

　　yoroshii　⇒　yoroshuu　⇒　yoroshuu gozaimasu

When does "gozaimasu" take "de" and when can it be used without?

Basically, use de if you mean desu and don't use it if you mean arimasu. The logic being:-

　　gozaru = aru
　　gozaimasu = arimasu
　　de gozaru = de aru = desu
　　de gozaimasu = de arimasu = desu

マイケル

[community.japanese]

Andy san マイケルさん、
I am sorry it makes you confused.

Gozaimasu has both meanings desu and arimasu.
The origin of gozaimasu is gozaru and gozaru changed into gozarimasu and finally gozarimasu changed into gozaimasu.
Examples are

１． なんでもございません。　（なんでもありません） I don’t any problems.
２． 私は中澤でございます。　（中澤です） I am Natazawa.
３． あちらのテーブルにございます。　（テーブルにあります）it’s on a table over there.
４． 村上様はあちらのテーブルでございます。　（テーブルです） Mr. Murakami is at a table over there.
５． ２階でございます。　（２階です） it’s on level 2.
６． 書いてございます。　（書いてあります）
７． その商品はございます。　（商品はあります）

Regarding pronunciation, adjectives have euphonic changes (in the pronunciation of a word).
あ段
早い（はやい） ⇒は＋ようございます
You have to drop「い」from hayai and change「や」to「よう」.
い段
大きい（おおき） ⇒おおき＋ゆうございます
You have to drop i and change ‘ki yu u” to “kyuu”
よろしい ⇒ろしい＋ゆうございます
You have to drop 「い」and change “shi yu u” to “shuu” which means you have to use a long vowel glide.
う段暑い
（あつい） ⇒あつ＋うございます
You have to drop「い」and use a long vowel (atsuu).
お段広い
（ひろい） ⇒ひろ＋うございます
You have to drop「い」and use a log vowel (hirou).

Examples are
①おはようございます。
②この服はちょっと大きゅうございます
③よろしゅうございますか。
④ちょっと、寒うございます
⑤この部屋はとても広うございます。
⑥家から学校まで遠うございます。

I hope it would help you.

Yuki 　由紀
Team JapanesePod101.com