Japanese learning theories

[Brody]

In my other topic about the number of words in Japanese, Belton presented this article, which deals with how foreign languages are learned
http://www.english-learning.co.uk/voc.html#v37 .

I'd like to start this topic to address and discuss various language learning techniques (as welll as this article).

The ultimate question it poses for me is whether I'm wasting my time using English to learn Japanese.

For example, I use vocab lists where I write down unfamiliar Japanese words and English translations. I think these are kind of a waste of time, because I have been noticing more and more that when trying to have a conversation in Japanese, I try to translate into English. But by the time I do, the person is sentences ahead and I've missed most of the conversation. Likewise, when I speak, I have to translate directly from English, since I know no other way, but this rarely ever works smoothly in Japanese. I think ultimately, that I need to learn Japanese in Japanese.
Yet, how to do this? I think this is key to mastering Japanese. I, for one, am soon moving to Japan because I want to take the English out of my Japanese study. Yet, what about those who cannot do this? How do you gain enough exposure to Japanese to master it? Also, even if you have plenty of exposure, how do you "gain" the words? Certainly, if you know enough words, you can figure out the one or two words in the sentence you don't know. But if you don't know most of the words, wouldn't you have to return to a language you do know? Is it thus safe to use a known language to a certain extent?

Back to my vocab lists. After reading this article, I wonder if I should abandon my lists. Currently, I write down English translations until there are so many and then I write down the Japanese sentence that the word was in and study that. I think it is good that I use the word in context, yet I am still basing a lot on that English translation. I wonder how it will work if I remove that step...

My move to Japan will be a giant leap forward in my Japanese study. I am going to experiment with completely removing English from my studies. I will try to post here and let you all know how it goes.

I would LOVE to hear from any fluent speakers (ie those who can use ONLY Japanese [or for that matter ONLY a second language], without having to translate in one's head into a native language): what worked for you? What didn't?

Thanks!

[Rens]

Hi, this is my first time posting on this forum. I'll introduce myself a little first. I'm a 23 year old Dutch guy, majoring Japanology (Japanese Language + Culture stuff etc) at a university in Belgium. I just finished my second year and I'm going to study a year in Japan at the Hitotsubashi University in Tokyo with a Monbukagakusho scholarship from October.

About your post, using Japanese without another language. I, myself find it effective to learn words by both English translation, usage in a sentence and Japanese meaning. This way it takes more time to learn one word, but you can completely master it this way. First you look at the English translation to get an idea of the meaning, after that you find some example sentences (found on WWWJDIC or your favorite dictionary) and see how it’s translated there and how it's used. It's also very useful to try to understand the kanji and look for expressions that use the word you are trying to learn. You can also try looking up the word in a Japanese dictionary, but that gives the risk you'll be endlessly looking up new words used in the explanation. Use this when you are still not sure of the core meaning.

Well that's how I try to learn new words. Now about exposure to Japanese. It would be very useful to hear as much Japanese as possible, even if it's with subtitles. Stuff like jdramas, movies, anime and TV shows are great to get a hang of how to use all kin of words. The best way to be able to speak Japanese without referring to your native language is just to practice speaking. Find some Japanese guy/girl to help you with this. If you speak it everyday you'll become better in no time. Actually using known vocabulary and structures in a conversation is difficult, but if you practice, you'll become able to think in Japanese. I, myself am by no way fluent at Japanese; I've only studied it for two years. But by speaking it every day, I can say I can speak Japanese (normal conversation) more relaxed and directly than English, which I'm sure I'm more proficient at than Japanese. It's just the practice of speaking.

I hope this reply helped, maybe I don't fit your profile for those you want to respond, but I hope it helps. We'll be going to Japan around the same time I see, where will you be going?

[Bueller_007]

I haven't read the article, but I think the best answer is that bilingual word lists are convenient but not the best way to learn.

Of course it would be great if you could learn each individual word in context, the same way you did when you were learning English as a kid. But that's just not feasible as an adult. So stick with the word lists. But yeah, try to give yourself some context like an example sentence or something when you make them. (I don't bother because it's too much work.)

One big problem is that word lists usually strive for a word-to-word match that often isn't accurate and misses the more subtle meaning.

As an example of something I recently learned, the words 控訴 and 上告 are both translated in edict as "legal appeal" or something. And I imagine that most word lists in Japanese text books would do it the same way.

What they don't tell you is that you have to do the 控訴 before you can do the 上告, the permissable reasons for them differ... Basically, they're specific to the Japanese legal system, and two completely different words for a good reason. In cases like this, you have no choice but to learn from context (and a good J-J dictionary). And of course, there are tons of words like this in Japanese.

[Belton]

Hi, Brody-san

I don't fit the profile, I'm not fluent in a second language.
But I hope you don't mind my 2 ¢ worth I can't resist (you can always scroll past)...

I think it's like driving a car, you can't think about it. You just DO it. When you learn you're very conscious of what you're doing though. When does the switch happen? How does it happen?

I think language is the same way. You haven't the time to do the translating thing. If you do it gets in the way. It just happens. How to get to that level? I think practice and repetition and rehearsal. I always fall back on my stock phrases when talking. Through rehearsal I expand these phrases and add new words to the mix. I sometimes write out scripts. Making an oral presentation is great as it's one sided! but it builds lots of confidence. If it opens onto questions the topic is fairly well defined and you can usually pull out an answer from something you've already said.
(the way you bring out foreign words I believe is called "mustering". You might be interested in the Yomiuri Shibuns language connection. It deals with teaching English but they have interesting articles.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/language/)

I think rehearsal happens in English as well. You plan what you might say at an interview or presentation (or a first date!) maybe in your head and not out loud, but I doubt I'm unique in doing this.

We are so used to hearing actors. But their lines are scripted rehearsed edited done again and again. Real people don't talk that way. Try listening to people talk in English. If they are anything like people in UK they will constantly repeat themselves and each other, use a fair deal of padding and use (NOT have) a limited amount of words.
But maybe become an actor in Japanese, play the role of gaijin speaking Japanese. Rehearse it. Just an idea. It's the sort of thing shy people are told to do. (did you make a Nanase-san video?)

And you have to loosen up a little. (I know I do!) Make mistakes; the idea can still get through. Very hard to do for someone fluent in English and well educated but you also have to make do with simpler language. And when you listen you may never get 100% but you need strategies to pick out what you need. You're not going to pass for native and I'm not sure they care. And communication is 2 way; you can rely on (hope for) the native speaker to help you out.
I know all this from my own learning experiences and from dealing with a lot of people whose English ranges from "how did they let them study here" to "have to listen hard to know it's a second language".

On meanings of words and phrases. The more I learn the more I find that there isn't a match between English and Japanese. How they phrase things, what specific words refer to, why this word not that one, (to me スポットライト and 電光 mean the same thing, spotlight. But I would tend to favour 電光 because it's nice and foreign-sounding! But it actually sounds very archaic to my teacher! )
If there was a simple match machine translations would work, but they don't. Ultimately you have to just let go and become Zen-like or something I think to reach that you'll need to use word lists and English (there's some sort of critical-mass you have to reach by this method) but eventually you'll have to trust yourself to just DO it. And it happens... I'm sure of it.

I don't translate things like 本を買いました。It does go in and out without thinking as a direct mapping to the concepts book and buy. I can do this in Irish as well (ceannaigh me leabhair). But not French which I've mostly forgotten (je vende un livre, I sell a book?-- I can't even remember past tense any more! use it or lose it!) But once I think I had to translate and with more complex concepts I still have to work things out. But eventually through practice I think I'll get there. (unfortunately I don't get or take enough opportunities to practice) I notice more and more that I'm understanding the Japanese around me (TV, people speaking,songs, jPod podcasts). It once took me days to read an email now somewhat less as I'm used to the writer. (oddly I find it much harder when I'm being spoken to directly, stagefright maybe)

As you have mentioned in your post, conversation is a come as you are experience!

I'm very interested in how you get on removing English from your studies. Once you have a base ability I'm sure an immersive experience does wonders and probably accelerates learning. (It must be exhausting to have to deal with a foreign language 24/7 though)

How to remove English.
The classroom method that is used on me is teaching Japanese through Japanese! Yes we need English but it's less and less of the time, I can now attempt to talk about the grammar points etc. in Japanese as well. The rule is to not speak English until the English 20 mins or less at the end of class. It was a shock the first day. Chika-san arrived and just talked in Japanese at us and used pictures and mime and got us to repeat things. I think everyone just thought OMG she doesn't speak English how are we going to learn anything!? But we did and I think by removing English from day 1 we might have learnt things better. We also tend not to translate as a class activity or even as a homework. It's more here are grammar points here is vocabulary now put them together and talk about something real that you know about. (of course this is not a university exam course and is very slow at 1 day a week and there's no way I could even sit in on a middle school lesson in Japan!!)

On specialist vocab. like legal terms or medical terms or film terms. You need it if you need it. BUT if you do need you probably need a large general vocabulary and ability in order to back it up. So you have to do the crawl before walking thing. And for my money can I have a beer and some sushi is going to be of more immediate daily use than Stick a 1K on that lowboy set it English with a quarter CTB and put a cookie on a c-stand in front of it. (it's English really! but my specialist language, someday I might be able to say it in Japanese)

Of course it would be great if you could learn each individual word in context, the same way you did when you were learning English as a kid. But that's just not feasible as an adult.

I disagree. You might not have the time but you have a better ability and intellect to learn words from context. Again after reaching whatever the critical mass is. And as a skill in itself "figuring out" is more useful than "memorise list", I think. And compared to English with kanji it is possible to derive meanings from the symbols themselves with a bit of practice and effort. I can't recall ever using my knowledge of french or latin to figure out English vocab but I have figured out unknown kanji compounds.

But in the end use every tool that seems to work for you. If you find something works better than others for you concentrate on that maybe. Relax, have fun, accept your current ability, work to improve it but keep perspective.

I envy you (both) going to live in Japan. I'm sure you'll have a blast. 頑張ってください！！

(oh dear another long post hopefully not BS; it must be because I'm Irish, gift of the gab and all that )

[JohnCBriggs]

Very nice discussion here.
I have long been interested in alternative study methods. I have been studying the traditional way using English/Japanese word lists and often English instructions on how to do Japanese worksheets. It seems like there must be a better way.

I am also a big fan of video based education. I have seen a few Japanese only educational videos (immersion) and it is interesting to see how this is done. There are a lot of visuals, subtitles, repeatition, pointing and gesturing. This can work very well and you learn a lot of key phases and words in context.
Here are some Japanese only video series that I have
1) Nihongo Miru Kiku Hanasu
2) The All New Getting Along in Japanese しん日本語でくらそう
　　3) Standard Japanese Course (NHK series)
The immersion always feels like a great exercise. However, I agree with the concept of having a "critical mass" of vocubulary under your belt. It can be fustrating otherwise. However, I must say that the NHK "Standard Japanese Course" is clearly intended for absolute beginners and you might be able to learn by total immersion from the start.
For immersion to work, the right tools need to be there. Most textbooks are not setup for this. However, as I make more progress in the Genki series (just about done with book 1) I see the instructions are now being given in Japanese. Clearly access to a patient native speaker would be very helpful.　　But I am studying on my on without a teacher.
jya mata
ジョン

[Airth]

The ultimate question it poses for me is whether I'm wasting my time using English to learn Japanese.

No, I wouldn't say so. But as others have pointed out, you can only use the English as a rough guide to help you on your way. You have to take a flexible approach to each word and realise that it will only be through extended exposure that you will begin to gain insight into the subtleties of the language.

These days I can honestly say I very rarely translate from either language when communicating. That doesn't mean I am anywhere near fluent, only that I've managed to disentangle Japanese from English. There is no secret to this, it's just that I live in Japan, I watch Japanese TV, I speak to my Japanese neighbours, I read Japanese as much as I can, my wife doesn't speak English, and I hardly have any kind of meaningful discussions in English anymore. Sometimes I fear that I will end up being sub-standard in both languages as my exposure to English deteriorates.

It is only recently that I've stopped referring to my Japanese to English dictionary to check up on every word. In fact I managed to get up to around 8,000 words using this method. I now try to find explanations in my dictionary of Japanese synonyms as it gives far clearer and more useful explanations than most other resources even if it is not as comprehensive.

I've decided to take the advice of that article to heart and read without referring to my dictionary. It feels somewhat uncomfortable at the moment, but perhaps it is a way to really accelerate the accumulation of new words. The biggest problem I can see with this method for many people learning Japanese is the barrier that kanji poses; without the necessary competence in kanji you have no choice but to continually interrupt your reading to keep looking them up. This, of course, doesn't apply to listening; in my case, I stopped checking new words as I heard them in conversation or on the TV long ago. You can probably put that more down to sheer laziness than any kind of learning strategy, but it seems to have improved my skills of inference no end.

[Brody]

Belton, your follow-up was excellent.

Upon contemplation of this last night as I tried to sleep, I revise my opinion and think that using a known language is very crucial and necessary in obtaining a second language. But eventually you need to, as Airth said, disentangle Japanese from English. I'm currently going through this process, so it's interesting for me to see how it's done, as I've come to rely so heavily on English for everything, from daily life to my very concept of myself. I know that I am suffering from a lack of sleep and an excess of nerves as I study day and night to prepare for my move (23 days to go!) and I know that it is exactly as Belton says: you just can't worry about it so much; You have to practice and practice over and over.

Anyway, I would say that vocab lists aren't so bad, as long as they are helping you move more and more into your target language. Next, I'm thinking about how I do audio practice. I think this is harder because when I don't know a word when I'm reading I can look it up. When I hear a word I don't understand I have trouble sounding it out in order to look up. The author of this article would seem to suggest that one should continue listening to Japanese even if one does not understand, and that osmosis will soon occur. I don't know how I feel about this approach. I've tried finding things with Japanese subtitles, so that atleast when I look things up, I look them up in Japanese. Still, I find myself relying on subtitles a little too much.

Ah well, I guess it's all a step in the right direction.

Sometimes I fear that I will end up being sub-standard in both languages as my exposure to English deteriorates.

This is always a deep fear for me. I always tell myself that it's an "urban legend," that English, being my native language, lies in a special part of my brain, where any second-language acquisition does not enter. I also tell myself that even amnensiacs don't forget language.
Still, sometimes I find myself searching for English words or having to take time to make sentences. It all ends up coming out grammatically correct and beautiful and I naturally stumble over words and am not an eloquent speaker anyway so it may have nothing to do with Japanese study. But sometimes I wonder just how many words I can cram in my brain before other words have to be deleted to make room. I've just come to love English so dearly, mostly because of my Japanese study. I absolutely LOVE English and could not fathom life if I were to lose any of my ability in it. So even the rumor that learning a second language could force my English skills to deteriorate scares me silly.

But I think we're just worrying over something needless. As I mentioned, we know that native languages encompass a special area of the brain and also that there is PLENTY of room in the brain, plus the fact that the brain can grow, in sorts.

Still, it's scary!!!

[Belton]

Still, it's scary!!!

Oh yes!
You're clocking up two of the three major stressors. Moving house and starting a new job (university course). And just to add to it you're going to do it in another language as well! Lot's on the line... no pressure now!:wink:
I'm just guessing but maybe you haven't travelled to somewhere English isn't spoken before?

You'll be fine.

Remember you're allowed to say you don't understand a word and ask them to try another one. How would you deal with a Japanese student living in Salt Lake City whose English was a bit lacking? Would you mind when they mix up a and the or just not get what you're saying? I think you'd help them out, it's a human thing to do.

Not that I recommend it but you can survive and thrive in Japan without ANY Japanese. (My friend swears that at her Juku there is an American who hasn't learnt or used any Japanese but lives there and makes lots of money. I find it hard to believe myself but I suppose it's possible )
And one of my fond memories of Japan is when I was feeling a bit culture shocked and a waitress spoke to me in English. It just totally picked me up and I had a great day after that. What's my point? Lots of great little things like this will probably happen to you and when you do talk to people (and I think you'll be much better at it than I was) there's a lot of really nice people who like to meet foreigners and ...

you'll be fine. it'll be great!!

The author of this article would seem to suggest that one should continue listening to Japanese even if one does not understand, and that osmosis will soon occur.

There may be something in this. Read this account of a Japanese student in New Zealand (fifth paragraph)
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/la ... Y14004.htm

[JohnCBriggs]

Slightly of topic, I would suggest that most adults don't use a dictionary often enough in their native language and their vocabulary doesn't grow. I don't think we should ever stray to far from our dictionaries. I am 42 and a native English speaker but I look words up in the dictionary almost every day.
I started doing this when my children started asking me to explain words and I found that I didn't know them well enough to explain them. At other times, my understanding was wrong.
jya mata
ジョン

[Brody]

Hey, I appreciate the support.

What I meant by saying it's scary is the that the idea of my English ability suffering because of Japanese study is scary.

I stayed with a host family for a month in Japan a couple years ago and absolutely loved it. It was a great factor in my decision to move there. I'm not so scared of the move as I am excited. The thing working my nerves the most now is my own language ability and finally getting a chance to truly try it out. I'm mostly very excited and eager to try.

But I digress... I wondered if it's possible for my English ability to suffer because of study of another language. But I guess that article shows it always stays in your brain, even if it's just hidden. I plan to keep a journal in English (for the most part because I like to write) and I think that should keep my writing ability top notch.

Anyway, back to learning theories: do you think it's possible to have two native languages? Say a child was born into the situation where one parent spoke English natively, one parent spoke Japanese natively, and both parents spoke the other language as well. Say also that the family could spend equal time in an English speaking country and Japan as well as have access to plenty of teaching/language materials. Would it be possible for the child to speak two languages from that "native" part of the brain? Or is it reserved for only one language?

(Also, should I move this topic? Does it still belong in the "All About Japanese" section? I'm primarily concerned with only Japanese learning, but this could apply to any language. What do you think?)

[Belton]

I don't think the topic needs to move. There's only the Listeners Lounge really and it's more or less on topic and hasn't gotten silly or anything. I'm sorry if I seem to have steered it off course. Anyone can steer us back if they want.

sorry I got the wrong end of the stick again!

English being displaced or made worse somehow.
I doubt it. I just don't think the brain works that way. I think new connections are made and the theory is the more languages you have the easier it becomes to acquire extra ones as it's easier to make the connections between reality and language concepts.
But then I don't think my English will improve much anymore. What I have works, it's not my craft. I might worry if I was a writer where I needed much more control over English, so by concentrating on other areas (not necessarily language study it could be anything) I don't give the practice that my English writing would need.

So I don't worry about my English as such, maybe I come up with weird sentence structures now and again, and I have a fondness for using new words for ideas I like, mojibake for instance, and I become more unintelligible . ( I've dreamt in Japanese a couple of times now that was weird I'd definitely overdone things. )

What I seem to find is any bits of non-English language I have are displaced by Japanese. That is due to them not being really deeply learnt and not being used. So I'm trying to dredge up some school French or tourist Greek and all I can come up with is Japanese! I think my brain is saying hey it's foriegn isn't it waddayah want. . But mainly it must be all my non English attention for the last 3 years or so has been Japanese.

Bilingual.
Perfectly possible. I know at least 3 people; two bilingual in French another in Irish. This is distinct from having acquired very high skill in a language. In fact in Ireland there are a parts of the country where people speak both Irish and English equally I'd say. (that said Irish is a dying language really, or at least quite ill! )
I meet a fair number of students whose English is good enough at 19 or so that they could be easily considered bilingual or be mistaken for English. Especially from Norway for some reason.

One French/English speaker; his mother was French so he learnt as a child. The other, his family moved to Luxembourg so a large amount of his day to day life and schooling were in French even though neither parent was French. The Irish/English bilingual was schooled in an all Irish school (all subjects taught using Irish, I could never get over the idea of learning French through Irish). but English was used everywhere else.

Indeed in London there are lots of foreign communities (1 in 4 people aren't British and I think that doesn't take into account the cultural identity of a lot of British Londoners) so there are lots of people who have their parents language and English.
(There's even at least one Japanese school in North London for Japanese ex-pats. now there's a whole other topic The cultural identity of 2nd generation Japanese)

I think the main thing is to learn it as a child from native speakers where both languages are given equal status and similar usage (ie an effort is made to be bilingual). Given the opportunity children can soak things up like a sponge. I guess you'd probably have to have a sizeable amount of your schooling in the languages as well.

I've never come across the special brain area for native language theory. But when I looked for theories of learning and the brain I never came up with anything useful or that understandable. Maybe it's not a native language area but a childhood language area or an area distinct from language acquired later in life. (It must be difficult to find multi-language people with brain damage to study.)

We do seem to have strayed. But I don't think your original query is specific to Japanese. It's a universal. How does fluency work? How does one acquire it? How does having 2+ languages work? (I can't understand people studying more than one language at once. It takes all my spare time and energy just for one.)

[Brody]

Hmmm...the reason I ask is that I have a friend whose father is American and mother is Japanese. She grew up in Japan and when I met her here in America in college, it seemed like she spoke both natively.
Yet now having known her for awhile, I notice things about her English. She may use a phrase in the right context but not exactly right...it's hard to explain beyond saying it doesn't sound quite natural. I don't know, maybe I'm just over-analyzing, but I wonder if both languages work the same for her...

Anyway, this has been a very insightful discussion; I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

[Bueller_007]

Of course it would be great if you could learn each individual word in context, the same way you did when you were learning English as a kid. But that's just not feasible as an adult.

I disagree. You might not have the time but you have a better ability and intellect to learn words from context. Again after reaching whatever the critical mass is. And as a skill in itself "figuring out" is more useful than "memorise list", I think. And compared to English with kanji it is possible to derive meanings from the symbols themselves with a bit of practice and effort. I can't recall ever using my knowledge of french or latin to figure out English vocab but I have figured out unknown kanji compounds.

Of course, "figuring out" is more important than "memorizing", but it's useful only as a stopgap: you don't need a dictionary to understand the gist of the word when you see it, but in most cases you will still have to look it up before you can use it properly. (The kanji often don't explain the subtext.)

And it's not like you're going to remember new words, their reading and the context in which they are used the first time you see them. You might catch the more common words this way by repeated exposure, but for the rarer words--the ones you need to be an "educated and fluent speaker"--you have little hope. So you're going to make a note of these and study them later, so you don't forget.

If you're going to make a word list anyway, why not sit down with one BEFORE you read the newspaper in the first place?

The barrier for context learning in Japanese is simply too high to be feasible for most people: you have to learn a new grammar, different social structure (and way of thinking), new writing system and a new vocab set. And yes, you face similar challenges in many languages, but the problem seems nowhere near as pronounced as in Japanese.

[Brody]

Now that I think about it more, I think the key is in finding ways to make your brain accept what you are trying to teach it. Learning in context is a very beneificial way to do this, yet it is not guaranteed. In the same way, one can randomly pick up words. I have noticed that my brain will not pick up words unless I can make a special connection with the new word, such as trying to figure out how to say something in Japanese, and then coming across the answer in my Japanese readings, or when I read a new word, I find a special apprectiation for the sound or for the idea it presents and it sticks.
Thus, perhaps the next question I should ask is how best to make your brain receptive to what you are trying to teach it...I guess you would need to deal with things that can keep your interest, yet even so, where does the line get drawn between you repeating what you have memorized and your brain being able to adapt that memorized knowledge into actual working language?

Hmmm.....

[Belton]

Thus, perhaps the next question I should ask is how best to make your brain receptive to what you are trying to teach it...I guess you would need to deal with things that can keep your interest, yet even so, where does the line get drawn between you repeating what you have memorized and your brain being able to adapt that memorized knowledge into actual working language?

That's sort of what I have against learning lists. It seems fine for exam or test situations but it's a bit mind numbing.

I am by no means any good at it but when I try to read material I tend to make 3 attempts.
1. just read and hope for the best and see what I can get from it.
2. the laborious read and look up step (and add to custom dictionary btw. and I don't do it beforehand as who knows what words I might need? do i review the lists? probably rarely or only to check on something half remembered)
3. re-read and see how much I can now get without a dictionary.

Is it better than learning lists? I don't know. It's more satisfying though. But maybe I'm getting through less in terms of quantity. It's a question of learning style. My style is probably chaotic. I try a bit of everything and work mainly with what I enjoy. There's also the question of why are you doing it. According to yesterdays newspaper I'm a recreational learner! So my drive is curiosity not employment or a need to impress the in-laws. I want to keep doing it so I have to also work at maintaining my interest.

(and that would be the case for a lot of people here. We're very mixed ability. I would say for a lot of us to find the 30mins to an hour a day to listen to the podcast then read around it and try to practice and memorise etc. is difficult in an already full adult life. Staying the course is the first problem to overcome. Things that feel like schooldays don't help.)

But that doesn't address how the learning process happens in the brain nor how a memorised list becomes words independent of that list flowing somewhat naturally into conversation. Because in true conversation it flows, the words just pop in there. I'm not sure it's something scientific experiments can be done on in order to measure the effectiveness of various methods. (although current thinking in UK is that communicative method of teaching is the best)

In the end I think language is like Jazz not a technical piano recital. Practice all you want, but you have to take what you have and improvise and enjoy the jam session!