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Particles in Japanese

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mmmason8967
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby mmmason8967 » October 14th, 2013 5:07 am

mewes6190 wrote:Yeah, okay, that's kind of what I meant - that BOTH fruits are the topic of the discussion! And yes, it's a comparison, but if I get 奈津子先生 right, she added that such a comparison by は makes both (or even possibly more?) matters which are compared to the shared topic.

Personally, I see them as two separate topics. However, this may just be a difference of opinion as to what "topic" means. I'm using it to mean the grammatical topic, the one that gets marked by は and which is the focus of what follows. So in the sentence 「りんごは好きですが、みかんは嫌いです」 the topic starts off as りんご and what follows applies to りんご up until the topic is changed to みかん. At this point みかん becomes the new topic and what follows is about みかん and not about りんご.

Like 奈津子先生 says, the sentence makes sense because there's an overall theme or idea that applies to both topics. This theme or idea isn't a topic, though--at least, not in the sense that I'm using the word "topic". This example is an attempt to write a "contrastive" sentence with two topics but without an overall theme or idea (and which therefore makes no sense):-

りんごは好きですが、ギターはできません。

マイケル

community.japanese
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby community.japanese » October 19th, 2013 11:28 pm

くろくまさん、neverbirth2848-san, マイケルさん、
It's probably how you consider "topic" in that sentence's case. And also we might need to
classify normal "topic" as "sentence topic". 8)

The main topic (and the one continues to be the sentence topic until the end of that sentence) is 私(は)
although it's not clearly mentioned. And regarding the rest, I pretty much agree with Michael-san's explanation.
I'll try to give my insights/analysis on this issue.

The particle は is anyway what's called "topic marker", but in my sentence, there are (supposed to be) three
はs in it:
私は、りんごは好きですが、みかんは嫌いです。
りんご and みかん can be also considered as "topic"s and probably better call them "sub-topics".

The reason for making any word "topic" is because we need to clarify what we're talking about (basically), right?
If this was only about simple likes and dislikes, it should be
私は、りんごが好きで、みかんが嫌いです。
In this sentence, clearly the topic is 私 and, in other words, 私 is the topic you have to clarify and/or emphasise.
Just imagine it's the Japanese class and students have to tell likes and dislikes in Japanese.
Everyone can use this simple sentence, just replacing the fruits' names.
In such a situation, you shouldn't drop 私は.

One of the biggest differences between は and が is "until where the marked word/noun has influence".
Subject part needs the corresponding predicate.
This relation of "subject-predicate" can be found in a very close place in a sentence if が is used to mark
the subject. And soon after the marked subject meets its predicate, the function as "subject" is over.
On the other hand, if は is used and marked word is "topic", the predicate(s) can be found anywhere in
that sentence and this topic continues until the end of that sentence.
Now going back to 私は、りんごは好きですが、みかんは嫌いです。 (A) and
私は、りんごが好きで、みかんが嫌いです。(B),
the sentence topic (i.e. real topic OR main topic) of the sentence A is 私 and entire sentence is about 私.
In order to tell what "I" like and dislike in a clearer way with certain emphasis, this 私 decided to replace が
with は and made those two fruits "topic" as well. When two similar parts shares the same concept or idea,
it makes the contrast. Making contrast, you're somewhat spot lighting the "words" (りんご and みかん in this case).
At the same time, the part りんごは好きです(が) part remains influencing the rest of the sentence
(by making contrast with みかん) and the same goes to みかんは嫌いです part.
In the sentence B, on the other hand, as soon as 私 says りんごが好き, this discussion of "liking apples" is over
and 私 move on to the next discussion -"disliking oranges". Those two parts are practically "independent" and
doesn't affect each other in any way.

So, to answer to Kurokuma-san's question (whether or not there can be two or more topics in a sentence),
I'd probably say "yes", but it's just not the same level as sentence topic.

Hope this helps :D

Natsuko (奈津子),
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neverbirth2848
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby neverbirth2848 » October 23rd, 2013 6:06 pm

community.japanese wrote:りんご and みかん can be also considered as "topic"s and probably better call them "sub-topics".


That's how I was seeing it, but couldn't explain it clearly. Thanks for your feedback and nice explanation.

community.japanese
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby community.japanese » October 26th, 2013 1:22 am

neverbirth2848-san,
glad I could help :wink: :kokoro:

Natsuko (奈津子),
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doodoofan6899
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby doodoofan6899 » September 15th, 2014 3:34 am

When I studied at a Japanese Language School in Tokyo, I always had a problem with telling は and が apart, especially when I wrote short essays. After living in Japan for a year, I think I sort of understand the usage now. :)
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby community.japanese » September 21st, 2014 4:16 pm

doodoofan6899 san

konnichiwa.
That is one of hardest parts for Japanese non-native speakers.
However, you got it!
Great! :oiwai:

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jks_black_500997
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby jks_black_500997 » January 8th, 2015 7:21 am

Check out my Signature as well for Joshi (Particle) List of all 188..
|†|NIHONGO|KANA|HIRAGANA|KATAKANA|KAKERU|KAKU|
http://postimg.org/gallery/hb1hh1hg/
|†|TOKYO XTREME RACER DRIFT 2|FAQ|PUBLISH|DATE|© 18.01.2015|
http://thextremeracers.freeforums.org/t ... t2676.html

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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby community.japanese » January 8th, 2015 8:46 pm

jks_black san,
konnichiwa.
That is great. :D

Yuki 由紀
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Nesaj123
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby Nesaj123 » March 12th, 2015 4:20 am

こんばんわ

What punctuation marks are used in Japanese and when are spaces used? (please give an example of each if you can, in romaji and hiragana)
eg. Full stop, question mark, exclamation mark, apostrophe, dash etc.

ありがとございます

shironmackenzie7121
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby shironmackenzie7121 » March 12th, 2015 5:54 am

Hi ,

can someone assist me with locating the Grammer Bonus track? Also I do love the Particles (Josie) lessons they have been very helpful I am only on lesson 6. I also would like some direction on Na adjectives... what are they???

thanks for all your assistance.
shiron

lauralanda
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby lauralanda » March 13th, 2015 11:02 am

Hi Shiron,

Thank you for posting!
About the Bonus track, it is after the Lesson audio-Review-Dialog. It would be titled "Audio". *It is not available in all the lessons.
If you need more information you can send us an email to:

Our Japanese teachers will go back to you with information about your other questions soon! :)
Cheers,
Laura
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community.japanese
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby community.japanese » March 16th, 2015 3:48 pm

Nesaj123 san,
こんにちは。
Actually the Japanese language formally doesn’t have a question mark, exclamation mark and apostrophe.
However, they are used in casual writing like manga.
Full stop is “。”, comma is “、”.
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j.c.s.black_507401
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby j.c.s.black_507401 » May 30th, 2016 4:39 am

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/cf/e5/78/cfe57873fbc9e34f0953aa9a7445ff77.png

can any one do a sentence to each of the above that make it corect to uze like some one to say up and down for me....

if i say title iz partical it mes up every thing in a cascade efect....right on time....

sumisu

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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby community.japanese » June 6th, 2016 8:17 am

Sumisu san
Konnichiwa.
The particle ‘e’ must be ‘へ.’ :wink:
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j.c.s.black_507401
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Re: Particles in Japanese

Postby j.c.s.black_507401 » June 7th, 2016 5:47 am

community.japanese wrote:Sumisu san
Konnichiwa.
The particle ‘e’ must be ‘へ.’ :wink:
Yuki  由紀
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https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c5/1b/d4/c51bd4d366b503d430914d93fd239540.png

Done Beginer Laugh........

Sumisu


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