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Question related to a good kanji-book

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mariyo
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Question related to a good kanji-book

Postby mariyo » August 29th, 2006 6:06 am

Hi there,

I've got a question related to learning Kanji. I have seen two interesting books : Remembering the kanji (Henshall), and Hensei's 'Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters'.

I've downloaded the sample chapter of Heisig's book, but I find it a strange approach to learn all kanji first without knowing how to read them. However, according to the writer it helps a lot to get to remembering a lot of Kanji.

In principle, I'd like to have some etymology and know how to read & write the Kanji.

Henshall's book shows etymology, readings and compounds. It doesn't show the stroke order.
Heisig's book shows etymology, but no readings and compounds (he does this is a separate book). This one has the stroke order, though.

As a lot of you are also studying Japanese, what book would you suggest ? (note that it doesn't have to be either of them).

Douzou arigatou gomaimasu,

Mariyo
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Last edited by mariyo on February 26th, 2011 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Belton
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Postby Belton » August 29th, 2006 9:13 am

I quite like these books. Because I like a workbook approach to learning kanji. Writing them helps me remember them better. I also prefer to do it all at once, I feel it's important to put the readings to them from the outset. I think it might be slower to get reading but faster to get writing the Japanese I know.

Basic Kanji Book vol 1 and 2 Chieko Kano et al. (Bonjinsha Co. Ltd.)
Image

They are fairly traditional in approach. Each book covers 250 kanji, covering about 10 per chapter. You could easily do a chapter a week, maybe 2 or 3.
They have the usual readings, stroke order, compounds and practice writing boxes.
The kanji are grouped into vocabulary groups for each chapter. And as you work through the book it gradually explains how kanji work. There are also reading and writing excercises for each chapter.



Kanji Power John Millen (Tuttle Publishing)
Image
This has a similar approach but presents kanji in the Japanese school systems order. I like this one because it has more example sentences and is nicely designed.
It has some etymology notes but some of them I'm not so sure of. Henshall's book is much better in this respect. I bought it to use mainly as an etymology dictionary.



Also I'd really recommend this dictionary.
Kondansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary Jack Halpern, (Kondansha International)

Image

I have other books but these are the one's I've used the most.

(Lets Learn Kanji Mitamura, (Kondansha International) is very good on components, radicals and structure and is also worth a mention.)

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mariyo
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Postby mariyo » August 31st, 2006 6:47 am

Hi Belton-san,

Thank you for supplying me with this information. For how long have you been studying Japanese? You seem to already have a complete bookshelf :D

Best regards,

Mario.
________
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Last edited by mariyo on February 26th, 2011 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Belton
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Postby Belton » August 31st, 2006 8:59 am

I've been studing about 3 years now. But whenever I pass a bookstore I'm always browsing and buying books. And I can rarely resist books about Japanese. :D

Some books I bought were too advanced for me at first but when I started to learn more I was able to get more out of them. Grammar books are hard to read through so I tend to dip in to them as I need to figure something out.

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Postby LPJAPAN » September 1st, 2006 10:13 am

Belton wrote:Also I'd really recommend this dictionary.
Kondansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary Jack Halpern, (Kondansha International)

Image


I picked up this dictionary the other day, partly due to this forum. I have to say that the first day I bought it I was ready to return it. I couldn't seem to find anything, NOT EVEN the Kanji I knew. I couldn't even find 川!! But after a few days of using it, it's gotten much easier to find kanji. The system of finding the kanji is easy to catch onto and that saves time!!!

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Postby Bueller_007 » September 3rd, 2006 4:10 am

LPJAPAN wrote:
Belton wrote:Also I'd really recommend this dictionary.
Kondansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary Jack Halpern, (Kondansha International)

Image


I picked up this dictionary the other day, partly due to this forum. I have to say that the first day I bought it I was ready to return it. I couldn't seem to find anything, NOT EVEN the Kanji I knew. I couldn't even find 川!! But after a few days of using it, it's gotten much easier to find kanji. The system of finding the kanji is easy to catch onto and that saves time!!!

Yes, one problem with that dictionary is that in order to use it properly, you have to already be pretty familiar with how to draw kanji.

If you have any problems, you can just look up the kanji by traditional methods through the lookup charts in the back of the book though.

Jason
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Postby Jason » September 3rd, 2006 6:41 pm

Belton wrote:Also I'd really recommend this dictionary.
Kondansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary Jack Halpern, (Kondansha International)

Image

I have this one, too. It was recommended to me by a guy in Japanese class at the time. I also have Henshall's Remembering Japanese Characters but I mainly bought it for the word origins and ancient characters. I wasn't too impressed by the mnemonics to remember them. I can't remember them like that anyway. They stick better when I see them in context.
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Alan
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Postby Alan » September 4th, 2006 1:25 am

I've only really been giving Kaji serious attention for about 3 to 4 months now. Quite a lot of that time has been spent in experimenting to find out the best way to learn kanji (not that I'm sure I've found it yet).

Mostly I've been reading short posts on the forums & comments here, using the Kanji Learners Dictionary to look up the Kanji, rather than using tools such as Rikaichan, as the former forces me to look at the Kanji & count strokes (I'm using the stroke look up method). Looking up by Radical doesn't really work for me yet as I don't know enough of them. Replying to posts in Kanji is also good practice, and I mainly use the Kodansha furigana English-Japanese/Japanese-English dictionaries to find the Kanji for words I already know. This method gives automatically gives practice with the most common Kanji used in idle chat :shock: but does not of course help with handwriting. However the Kodansha Learning Dictionary does have stroke order, so I could add a writing out by hand stage to my forum activities as extra practice. The main difficulty is not being lazy and making too much use of Rikai-chan (which I'm using to help read really long posts, such as the new Audio Blogs).

Books used: Kanji Learners dictionary; Furigana English/Japanese/English dictionaries.

The above is however rather unstructured & really needs to be augmented with a more formal approach to learning Kanji. I haven't really got that in place yet, but the primary issues are deciding on the order to learn the Kanji & how much information to learn about each Kanji on the first pass.

Most books teach Kanji in approximate order of frequency of use. This is ideally suited to classroom work & fits in well with examinations such as JLPT, where the most frequent use Kanji are examined first. These methods concentrate on using Kanji in actual Japanese words. This has several advantages: It helps tie Kanji learning in with general reading/writing, creating the mental links required to actually use the Kanji; It also makes it easier to learn and distinguish between the ON and Kun readings (The Chinese and Japanese pronunciations). The Kun readings are mostly used in words that have a single kanji, in particularly words such as verbs. The ON readings most frequently occur in words that are a compound of multiple Kanji. This still leaves quite a lot of words where it isn't obvious, except by rote learning, but generally is a great help. The main drawback to this technique is that each kanji is learn't to be drawn in isolation (no advantage is explicitly taken that some kanji are built up of others), which really slows the learning process down. This is a major issue, considering how many kanji there are. I have several books that use these techniques, but haven't finalised on one yet. My choice may be dictated by whichever book is favoured by this years classes, as I now have to learn Kanji for the UK GCSE Japanese exam.

Best Options so far: Basic Kanji Book; Kanji Power, ???
(???= A new one that's in the car right now & I'm too lazy to fetch...
Edit: It's '250 Essential Kanji for Everyday Use')


The trouble with the above approach, is that insufficient effort is expended on learning how the various radicals are used to build up the more complex Kanji. This is largely due to learning Kanji in 'frequency of use' order, rather than learning the simpler Kanji first & then learning how these are used to construct the more complex kanji. Thus there is a second approach espoused by Henshall & Heisig, where the main thrust is learning how the more complex kanji are built up out of the simple kanji. In addition, Heisig in particular uses mneumonics to help lock the component parts of each Kanji to it's most common meaning. This method also requires frequent review using paper or electronic flashcards. Electronic has the advantage that automatic re-review of mis-identified cards can be automatically re-scheduled. I strongly suspect that an approach similar to Heisig's is required to learn to distinguish between the 2000 odd general use Kanji in a fairly short time. However the method does not teach how to pronounce the characters, which is a major shortfall. As a result, you are still illiterate after using this method. Heisig attempts to provide a mneumonic method for learning readings in his second book; However I think this approach is mistaken, and that learning the readings for common words is a better approach.

Books: Remembering the Kanji, A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters

The problem here is that both the above methods teach a key part of what's needed, but because the order of introduction of Kanji is so different, they do not make good bedfellows. A possible approach is to attempt to blitz through Heisig in a few months & then start back at the beginning with the traditional 'kanji in the context of words' approach, which should be easier, as you already will be able to link the meaning of the Kanji to the way it is drawn. However I'm too short on time & undisciplined to have put this into effect. Furthermore I've noticed that the differences in meaning of several kanji are very subtle (meaning-wise) which may make glueing the two sets of learning together more difficult.

I hope this rather long post gives some useful rationale into the kanji learning process & thus clarifies which books teach what. However as a beginner, I cannot really validate what is best (it may differ between people anyway). In particular I have failed so far to reconcile two major different approaches to learning kanji. Personally, for the moment, I am likely to concentrate on learning a limited number of highly frequent kanji in the context of the words that use them. This choice is purely based on the demands of examinations.
Last edited by Alan on September 4th, 2006 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bueller_007
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Postby Bueller_007 » September 4th, 2006 2:23 am

As for my own kanji book recommendation, it's always been "Kanji In Context" for anyone who's approximately JLPT Level 3 or better.

http://bookclub.japantimes.co.jp/englis ... /0863.html

There's no better way to learn kanji-based vocab.

The best way to learn the kanji themselves is just with a pack of flash cards.

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Postby mikuji » September 5th, 2006 11:28 am

Maryo-san

I would definitely go for Heisig's method for remembering power alone.

I know it looks strange and it conflicts with other learning methods (i.e. pronunciation learning at the same time) but it is not an either or once you master the meanings. The Kanji have to be recognisable sooner or later so why not sooner?
There is no problem recognising meaning first and adding reading after.

To pre-empt you question. I have been studying Japanese since 2001 but totally on my own. I suppose I am at level 3 JPLT (I get above 70% when testing myself at the learning centre for this level) but, not living in Japan, I am particulalry interested in being able to read, so I need to get as many kanji as I can under my belt.

For all it is worth, Heisig's method is also great fun.

Gambatte kudasai

mikuji

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Postby tiroth » September 5th, 2006 2:27 pm

I am a huge Henshall fan. I used his book mostly as a reference work, especially when learning writing. I found the etymology extremely helpful for remembering the kanji 50-60% of the time. I used the mnemonics only rarely.

The biggest negative to watch out for is that the examples he gives are generally very poor. He sometimes picks very obscure words when there are clearly much more common usages.

In general, my advice is not to learn kanji but to learn words. When I learn a kanji I try to learn at least 4 words that use it, comprising at least the ON and the most common KUN readings.

I'll cut and paste here from a comment I made in the crisscross forum about formatting(electronic) flashcards for all of the Henshall kanji:

Question
1. Henshall number
2. Core meaning
3. Some explanatory readings, enough to identify the kanji

Answer
1. Kanji
2. Henshall readings (and rarely common readings that Henshall did not include)
3. Something else

The "something else" varies. For some simple kanji like 日 I may include no additional information. For kanji like 次 where the etymology is helpful, I include a condensed etymology. Where the etymology is NOT helpful but I like the mnemonic, I include the Henshall mnemonic. And for ones where I don't like either, I might just say "Obscure".

Example:
Q: 549 Bottom, base そこ
A: 底 てい・そこ Building and bottom of hill (from 低). Building at bottom of hill, later bottom in general.

mariyo
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Heisig?

Postby mariyo » September 5th, 2006 3:19 pm

Dear Mikuji-san,

Thanks for the feedback. It's nice to hear it from somebody who has actually been using it, as I only found on other forums that it was 'THE' method to use...but they had discovered it too late and thus hadn't really used it (which is not very helpfull :-).

Did you approach the study as proposed by Heisig : First the full book with all the meanings, and then the next book with all the readings? Or did you mix them once you had reached a certain level ?

Best regards,

Mario.

mikuji wrote:Maryo-san

I would definitely go for Heisig's method for remembering power alone.

I know it looks strange and it conflicts with other learning methods (i.e. pronunciation learning at the same time) but it is not an either or once you master the meanings. The Kanji have to be recognisable sooner or later so why not sooner?
There is no problem recognising meaning first and adding reading after.

To pre-empt you question. I have been studying Japanese since 2001 but totally on my own. I suppose I am at level 3 JPLT (I get above 70% when testing myself at the learning centre for this level) but, not living in Japan, I am particulalry interested in being able to read, so I need to get as many kanji as I can under my belt.

For all it is worth, Heisig's method is also great fun.

Gambatte kudasai

mikuji

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Last edited by mariyo on February 26th, 2011 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

mikuji
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Postby mikuji » September 6th, 2006 12:16 pm

Mariyo-san

I must confess I run out of steam at about 75% of the book but that's not bad considering that there are 2000 to cover. I also often go back to it and learn Kanji meaning in groups related by radicals especially when I find a new word and I want to learn a kanji not found before (or not revised recently). Eventually I start to see the commonality in souds too.

The point with Heisig is that even if I don't follow the method completely, it is useful to just learn the meaning some times without worring about the pronunciation. When you meet the kanji again in a new words it is already familiar- one less thing to worry about.

I also have the second book. This second book is useful but only if you know quite a few kanji already- the idea that in a kanji often a radical giving the meaning and another points to the pronunciation is often useful.

In conclusion. the method is not perfect but as the alternative is to slog through countless kanjis without retaining much and for several years before getting anywhere, I can live with the imperfections.

BTW, I have found also this very good site

www.kanjiclinic.com

which has regular articles about kanji origin and is also a useful way to remember kanjis by grouping them in category without overdoing it.

Have fun!

mikuji

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Postby Martin Ecker » September 6th, 2006 3:49 pm

I'm also currently using Heisig's book "Remembering the Kanji I" to learn the meaning of the kanji and I must say that I'm quite surprised how well the method works for me. I'm not making an effort to learn the readings for now. Although naturally, when you're exposed to Japanese on a regular basis, such as here on JapanesePod101.com, you pick up the readings of a kanji here and there.

Before I started and after several failed attempts of learning kanji the "traditional way", I could recognize and read some 50 kanji and reading a Japanese text was always scary, mostly because so many kanji were unfamiliar. After using Heisig's method for the last 2 months (I study approx. 1-2 hours per day, with 1-2 days a week where I don't do anything), I've made my way through the first 900 kanji and it's incredible how well I can remember all of these kanji simply by the stories and images I created for them. Every weekend I go through all the kanji I've learned up to now and my recognition percentage is always above 98%. My goal is to finish the book within the next 2 months, assuming circumstances let me continue at the current pace.

For now I can only say that I really enjoy Heisig's method and I'm always thrilled when I read Japanese somewhere and there's a new kanji I recognize that I learned the day before. I might not know the reading, but it's fun nevertheless and I believe it will make it easier for me to later on learn the readings. Reading Japanese websites with rikaichan has also become so much more enjoyable because I recongize a lot of the kanji and can guess what a word means before I use rikaichan to tell me the reading.

If you're using the Heisig method I highly recommend KanjiGym Light (available in English, German, Spanish, and French here http://kanjigym.de), a Java-based kanji flash card program for Heisig's first book available for PC and PalmOS, and http://kanji.koohii.com, a website for reviewing kanji where you can share your stories with others or use stories that other people have created for a kanji. This website has helped me tremendously in finding stories for kanji where Heisig doesn't provide stories anymore in his book. Some of the stories there are hilarious and they make remembering a kanji so much more easier.

Martin

mariyo
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Really useful

Postby mariyo » September 7th, 2006 6:33 am

Hi Martin-san,

Thank you for sharing your experiences with the Heisig method. I'm currently trying it out myself using the sample chapters of the book (= first 100 pages). My current feeling is that looks like it's working out. Therefore, my plan is to buy the book. However, I still don't know whether I'd buy the second book (on reading Japanese characters) or whether I'd use Henshall (as I've had as feedback that he covers more compounds.

I've looked at the kanji koohii you supplied me with, and this one looks indeed very good : you can actually find good mnemonics there in case you don't like the ones Heisig provides. I'm definitely going to use this. What I did up to now was try to come up with my own stories in case the ones in Heisig's book weren't working for me, but this is not always possible.

I'll also take up your suggestion to try out the 'kanji gymm'.

Again, many thanks,

Mariyo.

Martin Ecker wrote:I'm also currently using Heisig's book "Remembering the Kanji I" to learn the meaning of the kanji and I must say that I'm quite surprised how well the method works for me. I'm not making an effort to learn the readings for now. Although naturally, when you're exposed to Japanese on a regular basis, such as here on JapanesePod101.com, you pick up the readings of a kanji here and there.

Before I started and after several failed attempts of learning kanji the "traditional way", I could recognize and read some 50 kanji and reading a Japanese text was always scary, mostly because so many kanji were unfamiliar. After using Heisig's method for the last 2 months (I study approx. 1-2 hours per day, with 1-2 days a week where I don't do anything), I've made my way through the first 900 kanji and it's incredible how well I can remember all of these kanji simply by the stories and images I created for them. Every weekend I go through all the kanji I've learned up to now and my recognition percentage is always above 98%. My goal is to finish the book within the next 2 months, assuming circumstances let me continue at the current pace.

For now I can only say that I really enjoy Heisig's method and I'm always thrilled when I read Japanese somewhere and there's a new kanji I recognize that I learned the day before. I might not know the reading, but it's fun nevertheless and I believe it will make it easier for me to later on learn the readings. Reading Japanese websites with rikaichan has also become so much more enjoyable because I recongize a lot of the kanji and can guess what a word means before I use rikaichan to tell me the reading.

If you're using the Heisig method I highly recommend KanjiGym Light (available in English, German, Spanish, and French here http://kanjigym.de), a Java-based kanji flash card program for Heisig's first book available for PC and PalmOS, and http://kanji.koohii.com, a website for reviewing kanji where you can share your stories with others or use stories that other people have created for a kanji. This website has helped me tremendously in finding stories for kanji where Heisig doesn't provide stories anymore in his book. Some of the stories there are hilarious and they make remembering a kanji so much more easier.

Martin

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