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About 為(ため, tame)

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Alfonso
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About 為(ため, tame)

Postby Alfonso » September 22nd, 2006 12:53 pm

Hi everyone!

Well, this is my first post, so I'm sorry if this has already been asked. Although I just joined JP101.com yesterday I've been a regular listener for a while.

My issue is regarding the word ため. The first time I got in touch with the expression was the construction:
A(の)ため {に|の} ... = In order to (for) A, ...

Lately I've been reading technical papers and I've seen this expression used quite a lot in this way:
Aのため、... = As a consequence of A / Because of A

My question is if the change of meaning is the particle に or の (depending on what follows) or is it the context. Of course I can make out the meaning from the context for sure, it's just that I'm curious about it. Also the second construction is mostly used in written Japanese (never heard of it talking with Japanese people, but that's my guess).

Cheers.

Alfonso

Bueller_007
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Re: About 為(ため, tame)

Postby Bueller_007 » September 22nd, 2006 1:27 pm

Alfonso wrote:Hi everyone!

Well, this is my first post, so I'm sorry if this has already been asked. Although I just joined JP101.com yesterday I've been a regular listener for a while.

My issue is regarding the word ため. The first time I got in touch with the expression was the construction:
A(の)ため {に|の} ... = In order to (for) A, ...

Lately I've been reading technical papers and I've seen this expression used quite a lot in this way:
Aのため、... = As a consequence of A / Because of A

My question is if the change of meaning is the particle に or の (depending on what follows) or is it the context. Of course I can make out the meaning from the context for sure, it's just that I'm curious about it. Also the second construction is mostly used in written Japanese (never heard of it talking with Japanese people, but that's my guess).

Cheers.

Alfonso

"Tame" implies that there is a cause-and-effect relationship between what precedes it and what follows it.

If what precedes it is a cause, then it means "because of --".
If what precedes it is an effect, then it means "in order to".

There are very few cases in which cause and effect can be confused, so how you interpret it depends on the context in which it is used.

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Alan
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Postby Alan » September 22nd, 2006 1:55 pm

That explanation helped me as I'd also been getting confused with ため and it was on my long list of grammar points that need more work :)

Alfonso
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Re: About 為(ため, tame)

Postby Alfonso » September 22nd, 2006 2:46 pm

Bueller_007 wrote:"Tame" implies that there is a cause-and-effect relationship between what precedes it and what follows it.

If what precedes it is a cause, then it means "because of --".
If what precedes it is an effect, then it means "in order to".

There are very few cases in which cause and effect can be confused, so how you interpret it depends on the context in which it is used.


I believe that to think of "Tame" as cause-and-effect relationship in general is not a good idea. You're right about it in the first case, but the second is more about goal and what is necessary to achieve that goal, so it's a goal-requirements relationship. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

However, it seems that whenever you use tame-ni it's always "in order to", but I've never seen tame-ni as in the sense "because of". So, would this be correct?

事故のために電車は1時間の遅れた。

Meaning, "Because of the accident the train was one hour late."

Alan
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Postby Alan » September 22nd, 2006 3:07 pm

My dictionary has:

1) ... tame ni ... = in order to
2) ... tame ni ... = because, since
3) ... no tame ni ... = because of, due to
4) ... ??? ... = benefit, sake (??? = not defined very clearly in dict)

So it looks like 'tame ni' can be cause/effect or effect/cause.

There are some examples

Shashin o toru tame ni kouen ni ikimasu.
I'm going to the park to take a picture.

Ame ga futta tame ni suzushiku narimashita.
Because it rained, it got cool.

Edit: The first of these looks a bit ambiguous to me, maybe it could also be read as 'I'm taking pictures because I'm going to the park.'

Alfonso
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Joined: September 21st, 2006 8:06 pm
Location: Nagoya, Japan

Postby Alfonso » September 22nd, 2006 3:22 pm

Alan wrote:My dictionary has:

1) ... tame ni ... = in order to
2) ... tame ni ... = because, since
3) ... no tame ni ... = because of, due to
4) ... ??? ... = benefit, sake (??? = not defined very clearly in dict)


I think the 4th entry refers to expresions like:
Kanojo no tame ni nomikai-o hiraita = We gave her a party.

In any case thanks a lot for that clarification. it seems that the ni particle can be used also for the "because of" meaning.

Bueller_007
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Postby Bueller_007 » September 22nd, 2006 5:47 pm

If what precedes it is a cause, then it means "because of --".

This one is straight-forward C&E.

If what precedes it is an effect, then it means "in order to".

This one is C&E in the sense the action that someone does something ("the cause"), in order to bring about a (supposedly desirable) outcome ("the effect").

It would probably be better to call it an indicator of "purpose" in this case, but calling ため an indicator of C&E was what helped me to remember it when I was first learning why the hell it could be used both ways.

If that doesn't work for you, then you can just remember the individual translations.
Last edited by Bueller_007 on September 22nd, 2006 6:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Bueller_007
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Postby Bueller_007 » September 22nd, 2006 5:54 pm

Alfonso wrote:it seems that the ni particle can be used also for the "because of" meaning.

See also this forum post:
http://tinyurl.com/h7ket


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