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Peter's pronunciation

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RichieRich
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Peter's pronunciation

Postby RichieRich » December 4th, 2007 10:35 pm

I think that Peter is a great presenter. He's very entertaining and his understanding of Japanese impresses me, however, one thing I would like him to work on is his pronunciation of vowles. He pronounces the vowel 'O' like the English word 'Owe' or 'Oh'. This is actually quite distracting at times. Also, he sometimes pronounces the 'w' in the particle 'wo'. This is obviously not required.

Anyway, don't want to sound too harsh, it's just that I think it would be easy for him to fix. Aside from that, he really makes the process of learning Japanese a more enjoyable one.

kitty-chan
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Postby kitty-chan » December 4th, 2007 11:52 pm

He's from New York. He can't stop speaking like that any more than a British person or Australian could just "turn off" their accent. You say you don't want to sound harsh, but actually what you just wrote is isn't just harsh, it's downright ignorant. I don't know where you're from, but you probably speak "wrong" when compared to other English speakers. There are a lot of different varieties of English, none of them are "wrong." :evil: :evil: :evil:

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RichieRich
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Postby RichieRich » December 5th, 2007 12:19 am

I'm a British person myself so I'm fully aware of the differences between regional dialect and it indeed took me a while to learn to say Japanese vowels correctly - this has nothing to do with regional dialects, it's just that Peter is using the English pronunciation of the vowel, which as common mistake. It doesn't matter that he's from New York, he can still fix it.

Kitty, I would say that you're ignorant too, but I think you're just too angry.

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Postby markystar » December 5th, 2007 2:07 am

whoooooooooooaa....

i wanna step in before this gets nasty. :roll:

1) is this actually a "feature request?"

2) i think everyone agrees accents are accents, しょうがない。 richierichさん and kitty-chanさん, you guys definitely know it. so there's already some common ground here. :D

3) it's obvious that neither of you are ignorant. so let's not throw that word around. let's see what everyone agrees on and take it from there. 宜しくお願いします! :ojigi:

ok...
richierichさん mentioned the object marker を.
to the best of my knowledge, the this isn't always pronounced as a pure オ sound.
i'm not an expert on this... but it might be an interesting thread to start in the All About Japanese section. i've heard a lot of debate about this point and i'd personally like to learn more about it. :D

as for peter's accent when pronouncing japanese... i dunno what to say about it other than, the reason he wants japanese hosts on the show is because learners shouldn't be mimicking his pronunciation. if you notice, he doesn't break down the words for you to practice - a japanese host always does that. he's just there to give the "outsider's perspective."

actually, when it comes to pronunciation, i think that the pitch accent is what's going to separate the men from the boys (sorry, don't know where i pulled that phrase from). in that case, you'd be best off following naomi-san's and miki-san's pronunciation. for the more relaxed guys' pitch, actually, yuki is pretty good too.

wow...
my reply was a lot longer than i intended...
ねぇ、ねぇ、私前にバンドキャンプでさ…

RichieRich
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Postby RichieRich » December 5th, 2007 3:47 am

Yeah, you're right there, the pitch accent is always the most difficult,,,I often get my bridges mixed up with chopsticks (Hashi with the accent on the first or second syllabal).

I guess I just mentioned it because I think that Peter could correct it pretty easily. I've managed to and his Japanese is significantly more advanced than mine when it comes to his conversational skills. Also, he's got a Japanese wife like myself, so there's no excuse not to practice!

Anyway, I wasn't having a go at him so I don't know why kitty-chan had to get on her high-horse about it. Perhaps she fancies him or something...

Yeah, 'Feature Requests' probably wasn't the best place for this topic, sorry about that.

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Postby markystar » December 5th, 2007 4:24 am

oh, actually, his wife isn't japanese, mate. :wink:

but if you've got some tips about this kind of self-correction, let's get something going in the forum about it! :ue:

my accent isn't anything to brag about.... in fact, it's downright embarrassing :oops: . but i've spoken with americans, aussies, canadians, brits, etc... who speak japanese like they were speaking their native accent. and sometimes it makes me cringe. (personally, i don't think peter is that bad at all). but if you've had some success at it, please share it. :ue:


the beauty of this community is we can share ideas and techniques. if you can teach me a thing or two, i'd be grateful. and i know everyone here would appreciate it. (probably peter too!)

as for kitty-chanさん、she strikes me as a pretty light hearted girl. so i don't think she was on the "high horse." actually, after i re-read her message, i think she had an ill-phrased, but not spiteful message.

(in the end, i just don't want people fighting with each other, when we all have a lot to offer one another.)
ねぇ、ねぇ、私前にバンドキャンプでさ…

Ulver_684
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Postby Ulver_684 » December 5th, 2007 6:35 am

markystar wrote:oh, actually, his wife isn't japanese, mate. :wink:

but if you've got some tips about this kind of self-correction, let's get something going in the forum about it! :ue:

my accent isn't anything to brag about.... in fact, it's downright embarrassing :oops: . but i've spoken with americans, aussies, canadians, brits, etc... who speak japanese like they were speaking their native accent. and sometimes it makes me cringe. (personally, i don't think peter is that bad at all). but if you've had some success at it, please share it. :ue:


the beauty of this community is we can share ideas and techniques. if you can teach me a thing or two, i'd be grateful. and i know everyone here would appreciate it. (probably peter too!)

as for kitty-chanさん、she strikes me as a pretty light hearted girl. so i don't think she was on the "high horse." actually, after i re-read her message, i think she had an ill-phrased, but not spiteful message.

(in the end, i just don't want people fighting with each other, when we all have a lot to offer one another.)


Marky-san! :wink:

Kitty-chan-san was angry because Fabrizio went Salsa dancing and after that he went to a bar. She should know that they are just making a history up and that it's not true or is it?

Kitty-chan please don't get angry if my comment on the newbie lesson make you that way and then try to remove that anger with third persons. I am sorry! We are try to have fun and at the same time learn Japanese together because we all have that in common. :D

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Postby Javizy » December 6th, 2007 4:58 am

If you listen to the intermediate lessons, Peter is actually pretty good when he gets going. I have noticed the vowel thing though, it usually happens when he's speaking English and puts in a Japanese word (I find it hard to do that for some reason as well). I'm not an expert on accent, but I know that it's determined by stress with English, whereas in Japanese it's an issue of pitch, so since it's a case of overstressing vowels it could relate to accent.

You also hear a lot of foreign speakers stretching out long vowels way longer than they should be. I was doing it myself for a few months, but I started to notice that Japanese speakers hardly stretched them at all. Pronouncing say にい as short as the word 'knee' makes the required sound when you consider that に is more like 'ni' in 'nip'. I still find it tough to smoothly blend them in with the other syllables though.

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Postby Ulver_684 » December 6th, 2007 9:35 am

Javizy wrote:If you listen to the intermediate lessons, Peter is actually pretty good when he gets going. I have noticed the vowel thing though, it usually happens when he's speaking English and puts in a Japanese word (I find it hard to do that for some reason as well). I'm not an expert on accent, but I know that it's determined by stress with English, whereas in Japanese it's an issue of pitch, so since it's a case of overstressing vowels it could relate to accent.

You also hear a lot of foreign speakers stretching out long vowels way longer than they should be. I was doing it myself for a few months, but I started to notice that Japanese speakers hardly stretched them at all. Pronouncing say にい as short as the word 'knee' makes the required sound when you consider that に is more like 'ni' in 'nip'. I still find it tough to smoothly blend them in with the other syllables though.


Javizy-san! :wink:

Yes you are right, lets respect where the English was born United Kingdom (England)! :ojigi:

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Postby untmdsprt » May 22nd, 2009 8:58 pm

markystar wrote:ok...
richierichさん mentioned the object marker を.
to the best of my knowledge, the this isn't always pronounced as a pure オ sound.
i'm not an expert on this... but it might be an interesting thread to start in the All About Japanese section. i've heard a lot of debate about this point and i'd personally like to learn more about it. :D

as for peter's accent when pronouncing japanese... i dunno what to say about it other than, the reason he wants japanese hosts on the show is because learners shouldn't be mimicking his pronunciation. if you notice, he doesn't break down the words for you to practice - a japanese host always does that. he's just there to give the "outsider's perspective."


This topic has been moved from the "feature request" forum.

I know this is an old topic, but it's one that should be worth mentioning again. Stop worrying about Peter's pronunciation, and instead concentrate on either the native Japanese women, or the men in the podcasts. They are the ones you should be modeling after.

As for the を, I've always heard it as an お sound by itself or if the previous word has an お sound as its last syllable, then the sound is held like a long vowel.

As for accents, I'm sure I have a southern twang when I speak Japanese. It's something I have to work on, and I'm glad I have role models such as Naomi先生, Sakuraさん, and Natsukoさん。

Belton
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Postby Belton » May 23rd, 2009 7:24 pm

off-topic
@untmdsportーさん
I'm just curious, you seem to have admin privileges. moving topics, locking, stickying, etc. Are you the latest forum moderator?
It might be worth putting in your tag line or sidebar profile.

jaredh
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Postby jaredh » May 24th, 2009 5:35 am

The key is to live with a native speaker to learn correctly. I also have a Japanese wife so when I started with Japanesepod101 I very quickly picked up on Peter's pronunciation.

That being said I would like Peter to be in every lesson. Go back to Beginner season 1 and listen to everyone. There is no one better than Peter. His explanations and understanding of nuance are better than any other host or Native speaker. My wife can not give me an English explanation the way Peter can but my wife can and does correct my pronunciation.

Not everyone is lucky enough to live with a native speaker but listening to Peter's pronunciation is probably good. If you watch Japanese TV or spend any time in Japan, speech will not be nice and clear like the dialogs. Learning to understand all types of voices and pronunciations is more important than worrying about one person's "non-perfect" pronunciation.

Just my opinion
Jared

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Postby untmdsprt » May 26th, 2009 6:58 pm

Belton wrote:off-topic
@untmdsportーさん
I'm just curious, you seem to have admin privileges. moving topics, locking, stickying, etc. Are you the latest forum moderator?
It might be worth putting in your tag line or sidebar profile.


I'm currently doing an internship with Japanpod101. Right now I'm keeping an eye on the forums as best as I can, and also helping out with burning DVDs/CDs for the Getting Started series.

untmdsprt
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Postby untmdsprt » May 26th, 2009 7:01 pm

jaredhogrefe wrote:The key is to live with a native speaker to learn correctly. I also have a Japanese wife so when I started with Japanesepod101 I very quickly picked up on Peter's pronunciation.


I wish that was ever true!!! I live with my Japanese boyfriend and he constantly speaks English to me. I'll just have to get my Japanese to where it's better than his English!

Theodore
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Postby Theodore » June 19th, 2009 5:32 am

Hello everyone, I've been learning English on and off for 6 years and am still struggling with pronunciation (I'm a perfectionist btw). However, it was totally different with Japanese. I took an Japanese intensive class from Summer 2007, till Spring 2008 (5h/day and 5 days/week. A tough job but there was so much fun). My pronunciation was close to perfect even though my vocab was just barely enough to take nikyuu. I'm not sure if the fact that I'm Asian that gave me the advantage over people from else where but I believe there are some other factors here:

(This is not a lecture, just my personal experience)
_ In the class we learned with a Japanese (Izumi-sensei) right from the very first lessons of Hiragana.
_ Izumi-sensei never taught us anything about Romanji, she went straight to Hiragana and Katakana. This is probably the harder way to learn the characters but it's proven more effective on the long run. I think Romanji really spoils learners whose use Latin characters in their mother tongues.
_ Izumi-sensei constantly made exaggerated lips movements as she taught us the basic sounds. It really caught everyone's attention, and most of us tried out best to bend our lips along (It was really hilarious btw. We couldn't stop laughing after class)
_ Japanese don't use the tongue to pronounce as often as most of us do (explains why you don't see a lot of tongues in Anime eh?). Just my discovery, could be wrong.

* So in Perter-san's case, I think you might want to spend sometimes staring at Japanese people's lips as you speak with them :lol: No, seriously it works for all languages.

Regarding the matter, I find English speakers use their tongues much more extensively than their lips, which is opposite to Japanese. This could be the cause for Japanese to learn English and vice versa. Anyway, I can't learn to speak English by watching people's tongues because I can't get close enough and it's rather dark in their. Will Someone lend me a pair of binoculars and a flashlight?


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