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いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

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cloa513ch2629
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いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby cloa513ch2629 » June 17th, 2013 9:14 am

Its on Fuji TV- Channel 9 I think at 8:30 (12 on my TV). Its Korean derived obviously but they speak Japanese. Obvious matches like 場所  and others but many nonmatching subtitles. What's with that?  

Its after Bewitched- which in itself odd to be on Japanese TV.

community.japanese
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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby community.japanese » June 18th, 2013 4:59 pm

cloa513ch2629-san,
I'm not very sure about the show, but any subtitles are "helps" and not the exact translation.
There're many people who try to learn using subtitles, and it's good. However, they often misunderstand
how subtitles work. It's a great material if you learn those subtitles to learn and understand "what's the expression
in this language in this situation", but not "what's the translation for this line".

I think when subtitles don't match, it's because languages work differently.

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

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cloa513ch2629
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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby cloa513ch2629 » June 19th, 2013 7:00 pm

What do mean? Surely subtitles are for hearing impaired Japanese. Why wouldn't they be the same or at least formal Japanese for the spoken Japanese but these e.g. I saw お名前を I don't think that's formal Japanese.

I believe this show time travels (spatial travels?) so some might be in Korean but modern parts are definitely Japanese.

Its a pity you haven't seen this show because then you'd know I am talking subtitles in Japanese- its not translation between languages (except maybe small parts from Korean).

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby community.japanese » June 21st, 2013 8:05 pm

by cloa513ch2629-san,
like I wrote in the previous comment, I don't know the show you're talking about.
Anyway, the translation in subtitles is very special "translation". It has limits of words they can use
unlike translation of books and/or any other documents.

お名前 is a very polite way to say "your name".

Subtitles are the short translations and when we say "translation", it's NOT transliteration.
Languages work differently and we CANNOT just change sentences on word-by-word basis.
Translation and transliteration are very different and we cannot expect any sentences to work the way your
own mother tongue work.

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

cloa513ch2629
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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby cloa513ch2629 » June 22nd, 2013 8:50 pm

What has whether they use true transcription (in the linguistic of represent spoken Japanese by written Japanese)
got to do with English. I know to far degree how Japanese works. I know おなめ is polite for name but the question is what if the spoken does not include even an equivalent expression. What if the Korean production crew produced subtitles which only partially represented what was spoken? It can't be a matter of 敬語 as I saw subtitle with plain speech and everyman expression.

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby mmmason8967 » June 23rd, 2013 5:54 pm

cloa513ch2629 wrote:What has whether they use true transcription (in the linguistic of represent spoken Japanese by written Japanese) got to do with English.

No offense intended, but I think the problem is that your English is rather difficult to follow.

My experience of Japanese TV is limited to the extra features on DVDs. Even so, it's clear that at least sometimes the Japanese subtitles are used for editorial material rather than being a transcription of the dialogue or the voice-over. In one case the TV show has (a) Japanese narration, (b) Japanese subtitles that are not a transcription of the narration, (c) English subtitles for the Japanese narration and (d) English subtitles for the Japanese subtitles. :shock:

In the UK, TV programmes have closed captions for people with hearing problems. The captions very often don't match exactly what's being said; they are often a paraphrase. I guess that sometimes the dialogue is just too long to fit on the screen, so they summarise, and other times maybe the meaning relies heavily on intonation so they need to convey the intended meaning rather than the actual words. I imagine the same kind of thing would apply in Japan.

マイケル

cloa513ch2629
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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby cloa513ch2629 » June 23rd, 2013 8:00 pm

Yes but this isn't that type of show. Its a simple social drama series. The Dialogue is simple in this show- Japanese is also easy to write shorter than spoken.
The trouble is this show would be great to help learning written Japanese in an experiential way (things happen and this is the Japanese for it and this how it is said) - it is easy to follow without any dialogue . E.g. I know it about the time traveller from the past who meets this actress and she is attracted to him even though she with some famous guy.


I said it simple and clear before but she seemed to go a tangent. She used the complicated word transliteration and transcription- which is imprecisely defined. Transcription can be all sorts of conversion of language.

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby community.japanese » June 24th, 2013 10:12 pm

cloa513ch2629-san, マイケルsan,
thank you for the help, マイケルsan! :D :kokoro:

At this moment, only advice I could possibly give would be "forget about that show and find the better source".

Like マイケルsan wrote, Japanese subtitles are not really transcription or dialog for voice actors.
If you're looking for a direct transcription, TV is not the right material.
If it bothers you so much, it's not really a good material for you to learn from. It could be helpful, but
from your description, I must say that this TV show with subtitles affects you in a negative way than
productive way...

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby cloa513ch2629 » June 25th, 2013 12:51 pm

Unfortunately that show finished and there isn't anything. I put up a general thread about finding something suitable but I believe I had no replies.

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby tpgames3546 » June 29th, 2013 9:19 am

If you research YouTube, often times people will post shows that they've subtitled themselves into Japanese. I can't guarantee accuracy, but I don't know of anything better. Video with accurate subtitles are hard to find.

There is a subtitling forum where you can download subtitles (for movies you legally own), but often the tracking speed is off.

Concerning Subtitles/Closed Captioning: One of my big pet peeves is "gisted" subtitles as they are a slap in the face to the deaf people. The humour of what was said is lost because it never existed in the subtitles. Other times, what was said and what the subtitles say are so wrong due to mistyping or some other error, that it is funny (and sometimes during the dramatic part of story). Pride and Prejudice (1986 version? or something like that) has some closed captioning that contains editorial comments from the captioner, that are really funny!

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby community.japanese » July 2nd, 2013 3:25 pm

cloa513ch2629-san, tpgames3546-san,
Finding something on YouTube sounds brilliant idea although, like you said, accuracy of translation/subtitle
is unknown or not-guaranteed.
There's another website I often use: Daily Motion.
I saw some Japanese TV drama (serious ones, not comedy) with English subtitles.
It's obviously done by the poster/auther, but it was not too bad.
But again, "not too bad" means "good as subtitle" NOT literal translation of course.

Subtitles must not have literal translation because it's a very special translation style.
Subtitle translators are usually very well trained and they know what they're doing.

Interesting topic about subtitles for commedy. I can't help thinking how difficult it'd be
to put subtitles for any commedy actually. I myself can't do it; it's really difficult.
As far as I'm concerned, the subtitles translation for commedy is the most difficult type.
If the translator killed the humour, that's a fatal error as translator, but probably
s/he couldn't know how to intergrate it? I don't know...
I want to watch Friends with subtitles; it must be very difficult to apply the same humour level in Japanese
subtitles :lol:

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby tpgames3546 » July 3rd, 2013 9:06 am

community.japanese wrote:cloa513ch2629-san, tpgames3546-san,
Finding something on YouTube sounds brilliant idea although, like you said, accuracy of translation/subtitle
is unknown or not-guaranteed.
There's another website I often use: Daily Motion.
I saw some Japanese TV drama (serious ones, not comedy) with English subtitles.
It's obviously done by the poster/auther, but it was not too bad.
But again, "not too bad" means "good as subtitle" NOT literal translation of course.

Subtitles must not have literal translation because it's a very special translation style.
Subtitle translators are usually very well trained and they know what they're doing.

Interesting topic about subtitles for commedy. I can't help thinking how difficult it'd be
to put subtitles for any commedy actually. I myself can't do it; it's really difficult.
As far as I'm concerned, the subtitles translation for commedy is the most difficult type.
If the translator killed the humour, that's a fatal error as translator, but probably
s/he couldn't know how to intergrate it? I don't know...
I want to watch Friends with subtitles; it must be very difficult to apply the same humour level in Japanese
subtitles :lol:

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com


I think of it from the point of view of the deaf. The deaf love comedy, but the true humour that everyone is laughing at, can be lost on the deaf if the words aren't accurate. I would agree with you, it would be difficult to get the same humour level in Japanese. When subtitling between languages, I'd agree that literal never works. Instead, the same humour, but how the Japanese or the Italian or whomever language would say it, is better. When J K Rowling had the Harry Potter books translated into other languages, she wanted to be sure that the correct words were used to get the meaning across with the humour. Someday, I hope to read HP in Japanese, but reading them in German will come first, as I speak German a lot better (even though its still rubbish). I'm too new to Japanese. ;)

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby cloa513ch2629 » July 3rd, 2013 4:09 pm

Subtitle of Japanese of shows in Japanese. NOT translation to English.

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby videovillain » July 4th, 2013 12:50 am

Your inquiry has been answered already, but I'll try to help out:

Many translations from 'within the same language' have variations between the spoken and written versions. They don't write exactly what is said on purpose because there are nuances that must be taken into account as well as timing and space limitations.

Sometimes the written version requires more words to convey the right emotion for a given situation because the inflection in the voice can't be heard by deaf audiences. Sometimes too much is being said too quickly and a condenced version is required so the readers can keep up and move on to the next scene at the appropriate time. There are many more examples, but this should suffice. If there were a program designed specifically for teaching Japanese, im sure they would use the correct captions. I hope that helps!

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Re: いにょん subtitles are close but don't match

Postby tpgames3546 » July 5th, 2013 1:17 am

videovillain wrote:Your inquiry has been answered already, but I'll try to help out:
Sometimes too much is being said too quickly and a condenced version is required so the readers can keep up and move on to the next scene at the appropriate time. There are many more examples, but this should suffice. If there were a program designed specifically for teaching Japanese, im sure they would use the correct captions. I hope that helps!


This is one of the things I dislike about the media. They speak too fast! I'd just assume have the movie be 15 minutes longer. :lol: You aren't kidding about needing a condensed version. Sometimes the condensed version is too much as they are going back and forth between speakers very rapidly trying to get an argument out. I often watch a scene several times or pause it in that case (and I do hear, just don't process what I hear very well.)


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