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[てほしい」

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Tracel
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[てほしい」

Postby Tracel » August 19th, 2013 11:24 am

すみません、トラセルです。文法について質問があります。「てほしい」という表現についてです。私の質問を日本語で書くのは難しいので、英語で書こうと思っています。ごめんなさい。

I know that there are several different ways to express "to want" in Japanese. But is the 「てほしい」 phrase only used to express your desire for someone else to do something? Or can I use it to express my own desire to do something. Some examples:

1.大学に行ってほしいです。Can this mean "I want to go to university" or would it only mean "I want him/her/you to go to university"

2.わかってほしいです。 Meaning "I want to understand" or only "I want him/her/you to understand"

On the other hand, I don't know a way to use the suffix 「たい」 to express the meaning of "I want him/her/you to go to university." Is it possible to use 「たい」 in this sense?

Next question is about politeness level. How would you say something like this to a superior like one's professor?

1.I want you to understand my problem, professor.

先生、私の問題をわかってほしいです。 

Or would you more likely say something completely different, like:

先生は私の問題をわかってくださったら、光栄ですが。。。

どうも有り難うございます。

:kokoro: トラセル [渾名はトラです]
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

cloa513ch2629
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Re: [てほしい」

Postby cloa513ch2629 » August 19th, 2013 12:11 pm

Technically the want someelse to do is
-たがる but -たい is common now. ほしい is not a verb form- its an adjective which used for nouns.
ほしい
1. 大学にいきたい。 (you or other people- assume you but context will make it clear if its other people).
If you really want to enter university as a student the former I think is OK colloquially but this is more clear.
大学が入学したい。
    (にゅがく)

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mmmason8967
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Re: [てほしい」

Postby mmmason8967 » August 20th, 2013 8:26 am

cloa513ch2629 wrote:Technically the want someelse to do is -たがる but -たい is common now.

Is this correct?

I thought that ~tai is used only for one's own desires. And I thought that if I want to talk about what someone else wants, I can't use ~tai (because that's about what I want) so I use ~tagaru instead. So, as I understand it, ~tagaru isn't used to express what you want someone else to do, but to express what you believe someone else wants.

So I tend to think that トラセルさん's question regarding "I want you to understand my problem" will be something that involves ~tai or hoshii but with to negatte imasu added at the end to increase the politeness level. But I don't know how to talk about someone understanding someone else's problem, mainly because わかる is a difficult verb that marks the thing being understood with が (not を) and generally looks like a passive construction. Guessing wildly, I think it might be something like:-

先生に私の問題がわかってほしいと願っています。

...but I'm way out of my depth here :shock:

マイケル

Tracel
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Re: [てほしい」

Postby Tracel » August 20th, 2013 12:22 pm

Dear cloa513ch2629さん、と マイケル先輩、

マイケル先輩 you are correct about [tagaru] allowing us to express what someone else wants to do. [hoshii] also has a form like this: [hoshigaru]. These forms are called "private predicates" and they refer to inner sensations that are known only to the person actually feeling them. So if you are talking about someone else's feelings or thoughts you have to make a distinction to make that explicit. So the [garu] gives the extra meaning of (I understand that....) to the desire. So we get:

トムさんは友達をほしがっています。
(I understand that Tom wants a friend).

Other private predicates include words like: 悲しい、うれしい、いたい、ほしい。If you want to talk about someone's else experiencing these words you would use their [garu] form, or use something like [と思います」 in your sentence.

Anyway, I don't think [tagaru] or [hoshigaru] can express the meaning in my sentence. I am pretty sure that 「てほしい」 can, but then the politeness factor would definitely get in the way.

父はこの車を買ってほしいよ。
I want Dad to buy this car.

I am not sure how to say something like this though:

I want Dad to buy this car for me.

Hopefully, Natsuko-sensei can explain it for us.

Cheers,
トラセル
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

community.japanese
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Re: [てほしい」

Postby community.japanese » August 20th, 2013 3:36 pm

トラセルさん、cloa513ch2629 さん、 マイケルさん、
mmmason8967 wrote:
cloa513ch2629 wrote:Technically the want someelse to do is -たがる but -たい is common now.

Is this correct?

I thought that ~tai is used only for one's own desires. And I thought that if I want to talk about what someone else wants, I can't use ~tai (because that's about what I want) so I use ~tagaru instead. So, as I understand it, ~tagaru isn't used to express what you want someone else to do, but to express what you believe someone else wants.

You're very correct, マイケルさん :D
I think the reason why cloa513ch2629-san wrote "common" is because there're more and more Japanese people
who don't know the correct grammar, unfortunately, and cloa513ch2629-san might have heard of those wrong
usages. Still, incorrect is incorrect; if I hear someone says "kare wa nihon ni ikitai desu", I feel it strange and "not
correct". There're many native Japanese who feel the same.

Let's see overviews of each expressions :wink:
1. When you want someone to do something.
The expression you need to use is
[someone] に [something] を [verb]-て ほしい です。
マイケルsan, it was VERY close! :wink:
先生に私の問題わかってほしいと願っています。
Of course, this works only when the verb is transitive. So, using トラセルsan's first example sentence,
if the sentence meant "I want him to go to university",
(私は、彼に) 大学に行ってほしいです。
Now you know the second example sentence was also this type!
わかってほしいです。=> I want [someone] to understand [me/something].

2. When you want someone to do something for you.
This is about cases like "I want Dad to buy this car for me." that トラセルsan wrote.
Actually, the sentence can be the same pattern as 1 (above), but in order to clarify the meaning of "for me",
we could use ~てもらいたい and say
(私は)父にこの車を買ってもらいたい。
which also can be
(私は)父にこの車を買って(私にプレゼントして)ほしい。= I want my Dad to buy this car and give it to me as gift.
When we say 父にこの車を買ってほしいです。 it can only mean "I want my dad to buy this car", and it's probably
(and usually) "for me", but it's not clear. We usually use this simple sentence to say "I want someone to buy
it for me", but there's a possibility that you want your dad to buy it for himself or for his own good.
(Is this same in English?)

Basically, when the sentence begins with 私は (regardless of clear statement or omitted information) and
ends with ほしいです, it's a wish of わたし (= I want).
Then what we need to see is whether the sentence has information of [someone]に with te-form
or it has simple [something]が before ほしいです。If it's the former case, it meas "I want [someone] to [do somthing]",
and if it's the latter, it meanse "I want [something]."

To express one's own wish, the sentence end is ~たいです。
If the wish is someone else's, the sentence ends with ~たがっています, ~たいそうです, ~たいようです etc., like you
all knew! :wink:

Lastly, I'm sorry, but I'm not very sure where cloa513ch2629-san took 大学が入学したい from, but
this literally means "The university wants to enter". So, unfortunately it's not the case :(

Hope it helps! :wink:

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

Tracel
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Re: [てほしい」

Postby Tracel » August 20th, 2013 6:18 pm

皆さん、手伝ってくれてありがとうございます。

奈津子先生、このテーマは難しかったですよね。でも、先生の説明で全部だんだんわかるようになったと思います。 :mrgreen: 日本語と英語はとても違いますね。英語で一つ言葉を使って、「ほしがる」というアイデアを伝えられます。でも、日本語ではこのアイデアを伝えるのは表現が五つも必要になるみたいですね。たいへんです。 :shock:

This is what I was trying to say above:
Natsuko先生、this was a difficult topic. However, with your explanation, I think I have come to understand it. Japanese and English are very different, right? In English, we use one word to convey the idea of "to want". But in Japanese expressing the same idea requires as many as five expressions. Yikes.

(私は)父にこの車を買って(私にプレゼントして)ほしい。= I want my Dad to buy this car and give it to me as gift. When we say 父にこの車を買ってほしいです。 it can only mean "I want my dad to buy this car", and it's probably (and usually) "for me", but it's not clear. We usually use this simple sentence to say "I want someone to buy it for me", but there's a possibility that you want your dad to buy it for himself or for his own good.
(Is this same in English?)


Of Course, with the explanation above, I think that the meanings of both the Japanese and the English would be better understood when it is in context. By itself, the English sentence "I want Dad to buy the car" does not imply that it is "for me". For this sentence to mean "for me" that information would have had to have been made clear in the conversation before.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. :kokoro:
Tracel
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

mmmason8967
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Re: [てほしい」

Postby mmmason8967 » August 20th, 2013 9:48 pm

community.japanese wrote:マイケルsan, it was VERY close! :wink:
先生に私の問題わかってほしいと願っています。
Of course, this works only when the verb is transitive.

Wait ...... you can use を with わかる?????
:shock: :shock: :shock:

I am obviously mistaken about how わかる works. I thought you had to use が as the object marker.

When we say 父にこの車を買ってほしいです。 it can only mean "I want my dad to buy this car", and it's probably
(and usually) "for me", but it's not clear. We usually use this simple sentence to say "I want someone to buy
it for me", but there's a possibility that you want your dad to buy it for himself or for his own good.
(Is this same in English?)

Like トラセルさん said, in English we would think "I want my dad to buy this car" means it is for himself. Mostly we will use idiomatic phrases "buy me" or "buy him" or "buy them" to specify who the item is for. For example,

"Dad bought me a camera" = "Dad bought a camera for me"
"I bought you an ice cream" = "I bought an ice cream for you"

So it's usually "buy me/you/him/her/them <something>". If it's just "buy <something>" then it implies that <something> is for the buyer.

マイケル

Tracel
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Re: [てほしい」

Postby Tracel » August 21st, 2013 2:15 am

mmmason8967 wrote:
community.japanese wrote:マイケルsan, it was VERY close! :wink:
先生に私の問題わかってほしいと願っています。
Of course, this works only when the verb is transitive.

Wait ...... you can use を with わかる?????
:shock: :shock: :shock:

I am obviously mistaken about how わかる works. I thought you had to use が as the object marker.


マイケル先輩、I don't know if you can use を with わかる. But maybe that is what Natsuko先生 is pointing out above? Technically, わかる is listed as an intransitive verb, so it shouldn't take を just like you said. Maybe adding the てほしい allows you to use the direct object marker in this case? I think my using わかる in my example was a mistake because it is complicating matters. Also, in my sentence, I am talking directly to the professor, so I am sure we probably wouldn't ever say that because it is too impolite. We might say it in English to our own prof, but Japanese is always very deferential when speaking to someone above us. 難しいですね。 :oops:

I was just imagining a scenario where I am talking to my Japanese professor, and I am trying to explain something to her, but she doesn't understand me. Hence my sentence, "Professor, I would like you to understand my problem." But I think it would be better to use something different like: 先生は私の問題がわかれば、うれしいです。

My main point here was can I use てほしい to refer to something I want to do for myself, and I think the answer is 'no'. To say "I want to buy a book", I cannot use the construction 「私は本を買ってほしい。」 but I have to say 「私は本を買いたいです。」 奈津子先生にこのポイントを教えてほしかったのです。

ありがとうございます。

トラセル :blob:
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

community.japanese
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Re: [てほしい」

Postby community.japanese » August 21st, 2013 9:26 pm

トラセルさん、マイケルさん、
glad I could help, but sorry if I made you both confused with new point...

Particles can sometimes be changed when "pattern" is different.
Of course you both are right about ~がわかる :wink:
The reason I used を with verb わかる is because the sentence had bigger pattern of
[someone] に [something] を ~てほしいです。
This pattern is pretty much fixed, so even if the verb used takes が usually (in simpler sentence),
this pattern stays stronger and replace the particle to fit.
To understand how things work, you can consider ~がわかる as one fixed pattern, but
you need to break every single component when you use words in another fixed pattern, just like doing puzzles.
To make "[someone]に [something]を [verb]-te ほしいです。", you just need pieces of "someone", "something"
and simple "te-form of verb" without connecting to particle. :wink:

And, トラセルsan, did I give you enough explanation understanding your point? Hope so :D
If not, please feel free to ask more questions! :D
You can actually say 先生に私の問題を分かってもらえるとうれしいです。OR 私の質問のポイントをわかってもらえると
うれしいです。 :wink:

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

mmmason8967
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Re: [てほしい」

Postby mmmason8967 » August 22nd, 2013 8:01 am

山森先生 wrote:The reason I used を with verb わかる is because the sentence had bigger pattern of [someone] に [something] を ~てほしいです。

To make "[someone]に [something]を [verb]-te ほしいです。", you just need pieces of "someone", "something" and simple "te-form of verb" without connecting to particle. :wink:


あぁぁぁぁぁぁぁぁぁぁぁぁ!すみません、わざわざお返事して下さってあいがとうございます。

マイケル

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Re: [てほしい」

Postby community.japanese » August 22nd, 2013 4:35 pm

マイケルさん、
どういたしまして~ :D
お役に立ててよかったです :mrgreen:

日本語はパズルみたいに考えるとおもしろいですよ☆

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com


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