Problem with hiragana

[Spiderwick]

Hi all
I'm just coming to the end of my hiragana book (Let's learn hiragana) and just when I feel I have conquored this mountain my rope snaps!

My book tells me that I have to be careful with ん. Normally this is pretty straightforward, but what about the vowel combinations?

So: ta n'i (unit) ta ni (valley)

I understand the point. For example, it could be に or it could be んい.

But the book says the only way to know is to learn the word by rote! As a learner (self-study at that) of the language how an I do this? Everytime I'm going to have the 'n/m' vowel combination will I have to look it up in the dictionary? Are there no there clues?

Anne

[Bucko]

Ahh, that's a pretty simple problem to solve. Basically what they're saying is that if the ん sound comes before a vowel sound (あ、い、う、え、お) then you have to pronounce the ん with quite a nasle sound. I learnt well from this problem when I was pronouncing the city Hon Atsugu incorrectly. To the Japanese it sounded like I was saying "Ho Natsugi", when it should have been more like "Hong Atsugi".

Here's another example:

今日本を買いました (kyou hon o kaimashita - I bought a book today)
Beginners will often pronouce the "hon o" part as "hono". It should be "hong o". Get it?

Good luck!

[Spiderwick]

Thanks for you details on the pronuciation. But I'm still not sure if I have to translate romanji into hiragana a word with 'ne' as に or んい. How do I know which it is?

Another problem I've encountered today is the double 'o'. Again I can't work out when translating romanji, when the second 'o' is う or when it is お - both of these are possible according to my book.

Finally, I thought I was doing fine on the double consonants, but I was given 'atachi' (over there) to transform in hiragana - lost me completely!

Any help on any of these queries would be much appreciated - I'm at the hair-pulling-out stage

Anne

[Bucko]

You would never wite んい for 'ni'. The ん hiragana always comes after a vowel sound in a word.

[NickT]

You would never write んい at the start of a word, but in the middle of a word it is ok.

Normally if I wanted to write んい　in romaji, I would write n`i and に would be ni. That is consistanct with the jdic romaji input system, which is the only time I ever normally write in romaji.

When I type in Japanese, which essentialy converts the romaji on the keyboard to hiragana, you type nni to get んい and ni to get に.

Personally I would ditch romaji as soon as possible and only use hiragani. This gets round the problem of not knowing how to pronounce it. Translating romaji to hiragani is not really something you should ever need to do.

[jiashen]

I'm not sure what your question is. If you're learning the words by listening to speech, the crucial difference between ~んい and ~に is that um, one has two syllabi and the other has one. haha. For example, 分（ぶん） has two syllabi, while in the English language "bun" (or "boon", for that matter) has one. So that's important, and another reason why you shouldn't really use romaji.

[Spiderwick]

Thanks everyone for your help. I have enjoyed the book 'Let's Learn Hiragana' but it is a shame it has been a bit thin on the ground in explanations. It is purely a book to help in writing.

So, let me get this right ん always comes after a vowlel no matter if 'ne/na/no/nu/ni' directly follows the vowel? Okay.
However, the example in my book gave me ta n'i (unit) ta ni (valley). I've tried looking this up in my dictionary but no luck. What does the ' stand for? Is it the 'n' you mentioned Nick in your example? So it always implies a repetition of the consonant or vowel? This would mean unit = tanni. Sorry to mither about this, but I really feel I can't move onto Katakana feeling unsure in these problems.

Can anyone help me on the double 'o' problem I encountered? How do I know when the second 'o' is う or when it is お - both of these are possible according to my book. (Examples of words given are ookami, ookii, kyoo, doozo - is this a pronunication thing Bucko?)

My other problem was double consonants. I was fine in the majority and then I had to transform 'atachi' (over there). Sorry for sounding stupid on this, and on all other points, but am I supposed to ignore the 'c'?

Ah well,

Thanks again for all of your help but any further explanations would be much appreciated
Anne

[jiashen]

Well, I went to look up the dictionary. 単位(たんい) is unit while 谷 (たに) is valley. As I said, the key difference between them is that one has three syllabi while the other has two.

And as for atachi, 'chi' is a character just like 'a' and 'ta'. It's "ち", but I can't find atachi in the dictionary. As far as I know, "over there" is あそこ .

Actually you can just learn katakana if you want to, the system is almost exactly the same, except for that horizontal stroke used to extend vowels. It's just a different set of characters for the same set of sounds.

[Bucko]

The difference in the pronunciation of tan'i (たんい, meaning 'subject credit'), and tani (たに, meaning 'valley') is just how I explained it before. たんい sounds like "tang-i", with the 'ng' sound represented by ん, and たに is simply 'tani' with the hard 'n' sound.

As far as the 'oo' sound - おお vs おう、, they're pretty much the same to our ears, although Japanese ears might notice a slight difference. Just make sure you never write it in romaji otherwise you'll confuse yourself.

You've written 'over there' incorrectly too. And again writing it in romaji seems to have confused you. It's written あっちら, (which can be written as either 'acchira', or 'attira' in romaji, but this looks confusing as hell and Japanese wouldn't know what it means). To pronouce it, between the 'a' sound and the 'chi' sound there's a harsh pause (noted by the small 'っ' character). It's really hard to explain in words, to try listening over and over again to a Japanese person's pronunciation.

Hope this helps!

[untmdsprt]

I've never seen あっちら　in any of my books, but only あちら。My furigana dictionary lists あちら as formal for あっち。

I've learned 「おお」is only in おおきい、おおい、おおかみ、おおさか。「おう」is for all others.

Here's another example of what Spiderwick is wanting to know:

きねん - kinen - remembrance
きんえん - kin'en - non-smoking

The hiragana is very easy to pronounce, while the romaji is not. This is a perfect example of why we need to stay away from romaji!! Unfortunately, one of my best grammar books is entirely in romaji.

[Spiderwick]

Thanks so much for your help on this Things are become clear now. I did check my book and the word is spelt 'atchi' ! Crazy! I think I am going to keep with my hiragana dictionary now and try to do any correspondence using the symbols. After the points you have all made, i realise now that a lot of my problems have come from transforming the romaji into hiragana - activities the book has focused my attention on with little support. Anyway, suffice to say with all of your clear explanations I'll have a spring in my step going to work tomorrow
Thanks everyone
Anne

[Bucko]

I've never seen あっちら　in any of my books, but only あちら。My furigana dictionary lists あちら as formal for あっち。

Yeah my mistake. I was thinking of あっち.