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Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

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Tracel
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby Tracel » November 15th, 2013 9:28 pm

小狼さん、

今、日本語で書いて見ます。

そうですね。英語で、「drown」は他動詞か自動詞かです。でも日本語では、「おぼれ死ぬ」が自動詞ですけど、「でき死させる」が他動詞です。

しかし、英語では、自動詞が偶然の死を示唆します。目的語が「自分」ならば、他動詞は自殺を示唆します。でも、日本語で同じですかどうかとわかりません。

憂鬱な例でごめんね!


日本語を練習したいと、このフォーラムが一番いいところですよ。というわけで、皆がやさしいし、先生が私らの日本語を時々直してくださることもあるし、他の生徒たちがいろいろなことに手伝ってくれることもあります。最初に私の日本語はいつも間違いがあるので、書きたくなくて、恥ずかしかったです。今、その間違いを直すのは最高な日本語の学習道具だと思います。 :mrgreen:

このポストの文法の練習は今、「わけ」という言葉ですよ。どうぞ、「わけ」を使って、自分の文書を作ってくださいね。
Like this:
ところで、憂鬱な例をどうして選びましたか。私たちは妖怪と幽霊について話しているわけですか。

では、
トラ
Last edited by Tracel on November 16th, 2013 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

thegooseking
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby thegooseking » November 16th, 2013 3:09 am

トラセルさん、

Tracel wrote:このポストの文法の練習は今、「わけ」という言葉ですよ。どうぞ、「分け」を使って、自分の文書を作ってくださいね。
Like this:
ところで、憂鬱な例をどうして選びましたか。私たちは妖怪と幽霊について話しているわけですか。


私は少しの完ぺき主義者です。何かを書いてで自信のないとき、ちょっと怖がらないわけにはいきません。でも、私もは間違いが学習によいですと思います。

憂鬱な例については、実は、私がアイスランド語を勉強したときについて思っていました。四番にレッスンで、「Hún drekkti sér í brunninum」と習いました。これのわけが「彼女が井戸で自分をでき死させた」です。なんて楽しみですね。 :shock: とにかく、そういうわけで「溺死」の例を選びました

小狼

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community.japanese
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby community.japanese » November 16th, 2013 7:21 am

トラさん、小狼さん、teabag さん、
Ahhh, I'm so sorry for lack of explanations!! :oops:

thegooseking wrote:I'm going to have to comment on this in English, I'm afraid. I guess the direct object of 書く is artefact, not content, right? So a letter, a novel, an essay, a shopping list or a blog post can all be the direct object of 書く (you can also have 地図を書く, "to draw a map"), but the actual text they contain cannot. So maybe 書く can be transitive, but only if you're talking about a 'thing' rather than something that is expressed? I'm pretty sure you use と for both direct (i.e. quoted) text and reported (i.e. potentially paraphrased) text.

Yes, you're totally right.
Thank you very much for the clear and spot-on explanation :D

Thank you for an interesting example of でき死 :mrgreen:
In Japanese, でき死させる (transitive verb) is usually a murder. Intransitive おぼれ死ぬ can be
suicide or accident. でき死させる has "causative" させる, so it involves certain force from one person to another.

As to 妖怪....I've never heard of 納豆小僧 :lol:
I'd bring soy source, pour it on to him and eat him up :mrgreen:

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

Teabag
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby Teabag » November 17th, 2013 4:11 pm

Tracel wrote:納豆小僧の頭は昔の納豆の作り方と同じようみたいです。下の写真を見てください。


そうですか。昔の納豆の作り方ですか。
イネに包まれますね。
昔の台湾で(今もたまに見かけます)、ほうきは乾いたイネから作られましたよね。
Image
だから、私はこの妖怪のことを調べるとき、「ほうき+頭+妖怪」キーワードとして探したのに...。
この「納豆小僧」という妖怪はアニメのキャラだけじゃなくて、文化圏での差異もありますね。

ちなみに、Tracelさんはえらいです。自分で写真をポストすることを習ってしまいました。
もし、今回私がポストした写真も見えなければ、Teabagはここへはもう二度と来ません。
恥ずかしいだから...
(見えるかなぁ?祈っています)

Tracel
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby Tracel » November 18th, 2013 2:50 am

奈津子先生、

Ahhh, I'm so sorry for lack of explanations!!


Please don't be sorry!! I had mostly answered my question myself, and 小狼さん's explanation confirmed it. :mrgreen: I got confused because I had just read the post about the directional use of を, and I was over-thinking things like usual.  :ue:

As to 妖怪....I've never heard of 納豆小僧 :lol:
I'd bring soy source, pour it on to him and eat him up :mrgreen:


Ha ha, 先生は納豆が好きですか。大体外国人が納豆のこと好きじゃないのに、私は好きようになりました。少し味付け海苔とご飯としょゆと納豆とともに食べて、美味しいですね。 :mrgreen:

トラ
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

Tracel
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby Tracel » November 18th, 2013 3:04 am

Teabagさん、

今回私がポストした写真も見えなければ、Teabagはここへはもう二度と来ません。
恥ずかしいだから...


ほうきの写真が見えますよ。心配しないでください。 :D

トラ。
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

Tracel
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby Tracel » November 21st, 2013 2:32 am

もう一度文法の練習を続けましょうか。 :picket:

「わけ」の練習 #2

(1)「わけがない」There is no reason why…; It is impossible (for….); Cannot…

1.一年間だけ日本語を勉強して、ペラペラに話せるようになるわけがないです。
It is impossible to be able to speak fluently after only studying Japanese for one year.

2.彼はこの試験のために何時間も勉強していました。いい成績を取れないわけがないです。
He studied for this test for hours. There is no reason why he couldn’t get a good grade.

3.今夏休なのですよ。彼は忙しいわけがないと思います。
This is summer vacation! I don’t think that there is any reason that he is busy.

Do not confuse with:
(2)「わけではない」It does not mean that…; I don’t mean that…; It is not the case that…

1.確かに、この頃仕事ですごく忙しいですが、ハワイに行くわけではないですよ。
Certainly he has been busy at work lately, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t going to Hawaii.

2.彼女はバィクが運転できますが、車が運転できるわけではないですね。
Although she can ride a motorbike, that doesn’t mean that she can drive a car.

3.来週ドイツに行きます。しかし、宿題をしないわけではないですよ。
Next week I am going to Germany. But, that doesn’t mean that you don’t do your homework.

皆が自分の作文を作ってください。 :oiwai:

:kanpai:
トラ
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

community.japanese
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby community.japanese » November 21st, 2013 6:20 am

Teabag さん、トラさん、
こんにちは :D
Teabagさん、画像はちゃんと見られますよ :oiwai:

Tracel wrote:Ha ha, 先生は納豆が好きですか。大体外国人が納豆のこと好きじゃないのに、私は好きようになりました。少し味付け海苔とご飯としょゆと納豆とともに食べて、美味しいですね。 :mrgreen:

はい、大好きです :kokoro:
味付け海苔とご飯としょうゆと納豆なんて、トラさんは、とても日本人ですね :lol: :mrgreen:

「わけ」の勉強にうつりましょうか 8)
It seems you got the meanings very correctly and you can now use わけ very well :oiwai:
First three sentences were just perfect!!

1.確かに、この頃仕事ですごく忙しいですが、ハワイに行くわけではないですよ。
Certainly he has been busy at work lately, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t going to Hawaii.

I think it was supposed to mean "he would go to Hawaii", right?
It'd be ハワイに行かないわけではないですよ。 :wink:

2.彼女はバィクが運転できますが、車が運転できるわけではないですね。
Although she can ride a motorbike, that doesn’t mean that she can drive a car.

You used わけではない perfectly :D
Since this sentence has "contrast", I'd say;
彼女は、バイクは運転できますが、車が運転できるわけではないですね。
OR
彼女は、バイクを運転できますが、車を運転できるわけではないですね。
OR
彼女は、バイクの運転はできますが、車の運転ができるわけではないですね。

3.来週ドイツに行きます。しかし、宿題をしないわけではないですよ。
Next week I am going to Germany. But, that doesn’t mean that you don’t do your homework.

Japanese sentence is perfect!! I was just wondering, after seeing the English translation,
"who" is going to do homework. Your Japanese sentence says "I'm going to Germany, but it doesn't
mean I won't do my homework". If this is like a parent's line telling that dad/mum's absense doesn't
mean a child can skip homework, then it'd be;
来週ドイツにいきます。しかし、あなたが宿題をしなくてもいいわけではないですよ。

One tip to make better or a variety of sentences:
~わけではない is often coupled with ~だからと言って to have clear connotation of "although" or
"even if". So,
(彼女は)バイクを運転できるからと言って、車も運転できるわけではありません。
来週ドイツに行くからと言って宿題をしないわけではないですよ。OR来週私がドイツに行くからと言って、あなたが宿題をしなくていいわけではないですよ。
I think your first sentence would be better staying as you wrote, because it's just perfect :wink:

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

Tracel
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby Tracel » November 26th, 2013 10:34 pm

奈津子先生、わかりやすい説明をくださってありがとうございます。
3.来週ドイツに行きます。しかし、宿題をしないわけではないですよ。
Next week I am going to Germany. But, that doesn’t mean that you don’t do your homework.

Japanese sentence is perfect!! I was just wondering, after seeing the English translation,
"who" is going to do homework. Your Japanese sentence says "I'm going to Germany, but it doesn't
mean I won't do my homework". If this is like a parent's line telling that dad/mum's absence doesn't
mean a child can skip homework, then it'd be;
来週ドイツにいきます。しかし、あなたが宿題をしなくてもいいわけではないですよ。


奈津子先生が私の考え方をよくわかりますね。 :D 二つ目の意味でした。

1.確かに、この頃仕事ですごく忙しいですが、ハワイに行くわけではないですよ。
Certainly he has been busy at work lately, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t going to Hawaii.

I think it was supposed to mean "he would go to Hawaii", right?
It'd be ハワイに行かないわけではないですよ。 :wink:

:evil: 日本語の文法で二重否定という形が肯定の意味になることは私にいつもわかりにくいです。本当に気を付けなければなりませんね。<-(Yet another double negative.) :shouganai:
One tip to make better or a variety of sentences:
~わけではない is often coupled with ~だからと言って to have clear connotation of "although" or
"even if". So,
(彼女は)バイクを運転できるからと言って、車も運転できるわけではありません。
来週ドイツに行くからと言って宿題をしないわけではないですよ。OR来週私がドイツに行くからと言って、あなたが宿題をしなくていいわけではないですよ。
I think your first sentence would be better staying as you wrote, because it's just perfect

Thanks for the tips.:oiwai:
トラ
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

Tracel
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby Tracel » November 28th, 2013 5:45 am

くろくまさん、「よう」を使って、文章を作りはじめましょうか。でも、私の文法の辞書に書いてある「よう」を使う表現は多いですよ。くろくまさんはこの表現を練習したかったから、どうぞ最初のを選んでくださいませんか。

Kurokuma‐san, shall we begin to make sentences using [よう]? However, there are a lot of expressions that use [よう] that are written in my grammar dictionary. Because you wanted to practice this expression, would you please choose the first one? :oiwai:

トラ :blob:
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

mewes6190
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby mewes6190 » November 28th, 2013 10:52 am

トラさん、
こんにちは。勧誘でありがとうございます。 :)

Okay, there really are a lot of ようs in japanese, and they often mean completely different things.
So, in this case, what I would like to start with, is the volitional-よう, and in order to give it some more direction, in combination with the phrase としたとき.
The Phrase "Sentence A / volitional-form+としたとき / Sentence B" means: "Just as I was about to do A, B happened."

Now, in the volitional-form, よう only appears with the ichidan-verbs and the irregular verbs. Godan-Verbs are changed into volitional form by changing the last syllable into its o-Form and adding う. So, 飲む becomes 飲もう - I want to drink。
With Ichidan verbs, the ending るis changed to よう. So, 食べる becomes 食べよう.
The irregular verbs 来る and する become こよう and しよう.

So, よう can always be the volitional form of ichidan or irregular verbs.

Now, I want to start with some simple ichidan sentences in their volitional form:

1. たくさんお金をためよう。
I want to save up a lot of money.

2. シュワちゃんのサインを売れよう。
I want to sell my Schwarzenegger-autograph.

3.タバコを吸うをやめよう。
I want to quit smoking.

Also, one sentence each for 来る and する:

4. パーティーにこよう。
I want to come to the party.

5. 日本語を勉強しよう。
I want to study Japanese.

So, now I want to extend it to the phrase ようとしたとき: As I was about to do. So, sentence A ends in the volitional form, while sentence B ends in whatever way it ends.
Again, I'll start with ichidan verbs.

6. 箱を開けようとしたとき、妻が「いいえ」呼びました。
Just as I wanted to open the box, my wife yelled "no!"

7. パンツとスカートと決めようとしたとき、デートを中止にしまいました。
Just as I wanted to choose between pants and a skirt, the date was cancelled.

8. テレビを見ようとしたとき、停電したんです。
Just as I wanted to watch TV, there was a power shortage.

And of course, one sentence each for 来る and する:

9. 本当すみません、映画館にこようとしたとき、盲になりました。
I'm really sorry, just as I wanted to kome to the cinema, I went blind.

10. ハイディ・クルムを結婚しようとしたとき、起きるしまいました。
Just as I was about to marry Heidi Klum, I woke up.

And, as a little encore, some sentences with godan verbs, for showing the phrase with them:

11. 妻を殺そうとしたとき、優免しました。
Just as I was about to kill my wife, I forgave her.

12. きれいなコートを買おうとしたとき、あの安いルイ・ヴィトンの鞄をみました。
Just as I wanted to buy that beautiful coat, I saw that low priced Louis Vuitton handbag.

13. 窓を拭こうとしたとき、妻で窓から突き落とされるしまいました。
Just as I wanted to clean the windows, I was pushed out by my wife.

Okay, serious marrial-issues aside, what do you think?! :D

Now it's your turn, トラさん. :wink:

くろくま
Last edited by mewes6190 on November 28th, 2013 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

thegooseking
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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby thegooseking » November 28th, 2013 11:48 am

くろくまさん、
mewes6190 wrote:Now, in the volitional-form, よう only appears with the ichidan-verbs and the irregular verbs. Godan-Verbs are changed into volitional form by changing the last syllable into its o-Form and adding う. So, 飲む becomes 飲もう - I want to drink。
With Ichidan verbs, the ending るis changed to よう. So, 食べる becomes 食べよう.
The irregular verbs 来る and する become こよう and しよう.

So, よう can always be the volitional form of ichidan or irregular verbs.

Now, I want to start with some simple ichidan sentences in their volitional form:

1. たくさんお金をためよう。
I want to save up a lot of money.

2. シュワちゃんのサインを売れよう。
I want to sell my Schwarzenegger-autograph.

3.タバコを吸うをやめよう。
I want to quit smoking.

Also, one sentence each for 来る and する:

4. パーティーにこよう。
I want to come to the party.

5. 日本語を勉強しよう。
I want to study Japanese.


ちょっと混乱した。「いこう-I want to go」と「いこう-Let's go」とどう違いますか?How is the you volitional different from the you inclusive command?

So, now I want to extend it to the phrase ようとしたとき: As I was about to do. So, sentence A ends in the volitional form, while sentence B ends in whatever way it ends.
Again, I'll start with ichidan verbs.

6. 箱を開けようとしたとき、妻が「いいえ」呼びました。
Just as I wanted to open the box, my wife yelled "no!"

7. パンツとスカートと決めようとしたとき、デートを中止にしまいました。
Just as I wanted to choose between pants and a skirt, the date was cancelled.

8. テレビを見ようとしたとき、停電したんです。
Just as I wanted to watch TV, there was a power shortage.

And of course, one sentence each for 来る and する:

9. 本当すみません、映画館にこようとしたとき、盲になりました。
I'm really sorry, just as I wanted to kome to the cinema, I went blind.

10. ハイディ・クルムを結婚しようとしたとき、起きるしました。
Just as I was about to marry Heidi Klum, I woke up.

And, as a little encore, some sentences with godan verbs, for showing the phrase with them:

11. 妻を殺そうとしたとき、優免しました。
Just as I was about to kill my wife, I forgave her.

12. きれいなートを買おうとしたとき、あの安いルイ・ヴィトンの鞄をみました。
Just as I wanted to buy that beautiful coat, I saw that low priced Louis Vuitton handbag.

13. 窓を拭こうとしたとき、妻で窓から突き落とされるしました。
Just as I wanted to clean the windows, I was pushed out by my wife.

Okay, serious marrial-issues aside, what do you think?! :D


なんて便利な句だろう!わからなかった!

例第一:辞めようとしたとき、「あきらめなくてください!」と、ティンカーベルが言いた。
Just when I was about to quit, Tinkerbell said, "Don't give up!"

例第二:苦情を言おうとしたとき、カナダ市民権の証明書が郵便でついに来た。
Just when I was ready to complain, my certificate of Canadian citizenship finally came in the mail.

例第三:かれは自殺しようとしたとき、天使は現れだして、かれがいなかったら、世界がどうだと見せた。
Just as he was about to commit suicide, an angel suddenly appeared and showed him how the world would be if he didn't exist.

Edit: I'm not sure about とした actually... I have a feeling としていた would be better, since you're describing the state of doing that thing to serve as context for the next clause.

小狼

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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby mewes6190 » November 28th, 2013 12:47 pm

thegooseking wrote:ちょっと混乱した。「いこう-I want to go」と「いこう-Let's go」とどう違いますか?How is the you volitional different from the you inclusive command?

How would I know? You're way beyond my skills, if you don't know, I sure don't. Like I said, I have a lot to learn and repeat with all the different ようs. :oops:

thegooseking wrote:Edit: I'm not sure about とした actually... I have a feeling としていた would be better, since you're describing the state of doing that thing to serve as context for the next clause.

小狼


Possible, I simply took that one word by word out of my textbook. That uses the phrase as ~ようとしたとき...

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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby mewes6190 » November 28th, 2013 3:03 pm

小狼さん

thegooseking wrote:例第一:辞めようとしたとき、「あきらめなくてください!」と、ティンカーベルが言いた。
Just when I was about to quit, Tinkerbell said, "Don't give up!"

例第二:苦情を言おうとしたとき、カナダ市民権の証明書が郵便でついに来た。
Just when I was ready to complain, my certificate of Canadian citizenship finally came in the mail.


I've been thinking about those two examples by you. Maybe 奈津子先生 can answer that, as I'm not sure, if the phrase ようとしたとき is applyable here.
As I understood it in my textbook, it would connect actually an explicit act of doing something, while something else occurs. In this cases, it seems to my, like there's more a changing state of mind going on, not an actual activity or action.
Your third example was much clearer on this.

So, I'm not exactly sure if you could, or would, use the phrase with state of minds as "getting ready to complain" and "Starting to give up". As I said, maybe 奈津子先生 does know more here. It'd like to know. :)

くろくま

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Re: Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

Postby Tracel » November 28th, 2013 11:44 pm

くろくまさん、小狼さん、

So I was a little confused at first as to what exactly 'volitional' means. I thought it meant 'to want' at first as well, but I remember looking it up a long time ago, and found I was mistaken. So, I was pretty sure it didn't mean "to want something", but "intention". My grammar books were not that helpful, so I googled it and came up with this definition from this site: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_verb_conjugation#Volitional_.28Presumptive.2C_Hortative.29
[/url]
In general, the volitional form expresses intention, such as in these cases:

In volitional ("let's" or "I shall") statements: 勉強しよう benkyō shiyō: "Let's study" or "I shall study".
To ask volitional ("shall we") questions: 行こうか ikō ka: "Shall (we) go?"
To express a conjecture with deshō: 明日晴れるでしょう ashita hareru deshō: "Tomorrow will probably be sunny."
To express what one is thinking of doing, via 思う omou: 買おうと思う kaō to omou: "(I) am thinking of buying (it)".
In the form しようとする shiyō to suru: be about to or be trying to. 犬が吠えようとしている Inu ga hoeyō to shite iru: "The dog is about to bark."

So your first set of sentences would not have the meaning of to 'want to do...". They would mean "lets do" or 'I shall do' if you do not have a question marker か, and "shall I/we do..." with the question marker か.

1. たくさんお金をためよう。
I want to save up a lot of money.

:arrow:I shall save up a lot of money.

2. シュワちゃんのサインを売ろう。(Not売れよう)
I want to sell my Schwarzenegger-autograph.

:arrow: I shall sell my Schwarzeneggar autograph.

3.タバコを吸うのはやめよう。(Instead of 吸うを)
I want to quit smoking.

:arrow: I shall quit smoking.

Also, one sentence each for 来る and する:

4. パーティーにこよう。
I want to come to the party.

:arrow: I shall come to the party.

5. 日本語を勉強しよう。
I want to study Japanese.
:arrow: I shall study Japanese.

                  :flower: :flower: :flower: :flower: :flower:
On to the phrase: [ようとしたとき]:
The above explanation tells us that: In the form しようとする shiyō to suru: be about to or be trying to. 犬が吠えようとしている Inu ga hoeyō to shite iru: "The dog is about to bark." 

This seems to be a combination of Volitional verb + the phrase [—とする], which used together mean someone 'tries to do something', or 'is about to do something". So, again, there is no sense of "wanting to..." but of "intending or trying to..." :mrgreen:

6. 箱を開けようとしたとき、妻が「いいえ」呼びました。
Just as I wanted to open the box, my wife yelled "no!”

:arrow: I was just about to (I was trying to) open the box, when my wife yelled "no".

7. パンツとスカートと決めようとしたとき、デートを中止にしまいました。
Just as I wanted to choose between pants and a skirt, the date was cancelled.

:arrow: I was just about to choose between pants and a skirt, when the date was cancelled.

8. テレビを見ようとしたとき、停電したんです。
Just as I wanted to watch TV, there was a power shortage.

:arrow: I was just about to watch TV, when there was a power outage.(Shortage means something else).

And of course, one sentence each for 来る and する:

9. 本当すみません、映画館にこようとしたとき、盲になりました。
I'm really sorry, just as I wanted to come to the cinema, I went blind.

:arrow: I'm really sorry. I was just about to come to the cinema, when I went blind.

10. ハイディ・クルムを結婚しようとしたとき、起きるしまいました。
Just as I was about to marry Heidi Klum, I woke up.
:D Correct


And, as a little encore, some sentences with godan verbs, for showing the phrase with them:

11. 妻を殺そうとしたとき、優免しました。(not sure if this is the correct phrase or not)
Just as I was about to kill my wife, I forgave her.
Correct

12. きれいなコートを買おうとしたとき、あの安いルイ・ヴィトンの鞄をみました。
Just as I was about to buy that beautiful coat, I saw that low priced Louis Vuitton handbag.


13. 窓を拭こうとしたとき、妻で窓から突き落とされるしまいました。(not sure of the tense combo at the end)
Just as I was about to clean the windows, I was pushed out by my wife.


Wow, you did a lot of work. I am going to take a break and then do some of my own sentences. :oiwai:

トラ :blob:
ごきげんよう、
トラセル

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