Approach to learning Kanji

[Bueller_007]

I'm reading a mystery book from the junior high school library that has 部屋 with furigana (along with several other words that I've known since my first year of studying Japanese). No idea what grade level it's written for-- anyone know if there's a way to find that out?

I don't know how to find that out, but if 部屋 had furigana, it must have been pretty damn low. I know it's not the most regular way to read them, but those are early elementary school kanji, and the word sure is common enough...

[annie]

I'm reading a mystery book from the junior high school library that has 部屋 with furigana (along with several other words that I've known since my first year of studying Japanese). No idea what grade level it's written for-- anyone know if there's a way to find that out?

I don't know how to find that out, but if 部屋 had furigana, it must have been pretty damn low. I know it's not the most regular way to read them, but those are early elementary school kanji, and the word sure is common enough...

I've been training myself not to notice the furigana, since it takes so much longer to read if I'm looking at furigana rather than kanji. But taking a closer look, it looks like they're putting furigana on grade 6 kanji and above.

No wonder it's been such an easy read! And so much more fun than reading a newspaper, but then I've always loved children's/young adult books.

Not that it means the book is at a grade 6 reading level, since reading level should also take into account vocabulary. Might be a question for the school librarian. If they even have the same "grade level reading" concept that we do in the U.S.

And the book is part of the Akagawa Jiro Mystery Collection: 死者の学園祭　in case anyone cares.


To bring this back to the original kanji learning topic....
there's a lot more to read besides newspapers.

I find reading to be one of the best ways of learning new kanji and their readings. Because it provides you with more of a context than just memorizing a list of kanji and vocabulary words. Though, don't try to learn every new kanji and vocab word you encounter. wait until you've seen it a few times.

Write out a few sentences from the book/newspaper article. Then use those as your test--- see if you can recreate the kanji. Then see if you can recreate the hiragana. Keep learning new sentences every day, but review the old ones too.

[Belton]

i don't think i quite understand what you mean by "you won't learn readings."

My understanding of Heisig is you learn the core (English) meaning not the Kun and On readings. So you would be able to have an understanding of a written piece in a rebus sort of way but would be unable to read it aloud.
It also teaches you how to remember to write the kanji.
Book 2 teaches the readings.

How you would link this in to your Japanese knowledge I never bothered to find out.
I didn't think it would suit my style either.


"know it when you see it"
Isn't that how reading works? You have the largest working vocabulary in your reading ability. (regardless of language)
There are English words I can read and understand but wouldn't be able to spell properly without a spellchecker. And there are alll sorts of words I can read but don't use in writing or speaking.

I suppose it'd be wonderful to have complete access to everything but in practice it just doesn't work that way.



Older or non-jouyou kanji and the youth of today.
I'm really not surprised at all.

This sounds like the complaints of old men.
My father knew Classical Greek and Latin; I knew Latin once; now Latin is hardly ever taught any more but was once considered something an educated person should know.
(and few know the correct plural of rostrum, I complain grumpily)
Likewise I read a lot for pleasure. The students I deal with only read their course texts. Reading isn't popular. (In the UK apparently the average adult only buys one book a year! )
I think people learn what they need to know.
If they read they have larger exposure and probably have a larger reading vocabulary. Otherwise they learn what they need to pass exams which is hard enough to do. Then on leaving school they hopefully have enough for their day to day needs and the resources to find out more if they need or want to.

Anyway...

To return to the original post.
I found it usful to use the JLPT lists as a core to my studies. At least there is some sort of immediate payoff in being able to take those tests. The kanji on the lists seem to tie into the vocabulary I'm learning in evening class.
Recently I've also been using kanji grouped by grade. If only because I'm finding learning material based on the Japanese school system grades. But I've no idea about the logic behind the groupings.

I think it's very useful to group kanji by meaning. If you learn buy, why not learn sell, shop, lend, borrow at the same time? They'll reinforce each other in your memory.
I also like to group kanji by radical; again going on the principle of it being easier to remember a group. It also helps me learn to distinguish similar kanji.
As for method, I like to practice writing them and I mainly use flash cards. I use kanji whenever I can in the hope that with repeated use and exposure something will stick.

But it's a long process. Made longer by the fact I do it part time as a hobby outside Japan. I'm only recently getting to a stage where reading is becoming practical. Even then finding graded texts is difficult. I doubt I'll ever really read for pleasure in Japanese. But I find it very satisfying in and of itself to write and study kanji.

[WCR91]

Hmm. Despite the other methods and such, would any of you say that constant repetition is [definitely not the fastest, but] the most foolproof way of studying kanji?

[annie]

Hmm. Despite the other methods and such, would any of you say that constant repetition is [definitely not the fastest, but] the most foolproof way of studying kanji?

It all depends on your own personal learning style. How do you learn best?

If you're the sort of person that learns best by writing, then yeah it's the way to go.

(Personally, I can't remember anything unless I write it down... I'm the sort of person who will make flashcards and then never need to look at them because the action of writing it was enough for me to memorize it.)

[Belton]

Hmm. Despite the other methods and such, would any of you say that constant repetition is [definitely not the fastest, but] the most foolproof way of studying kanji?

I think it's the only way to learn something. Unless you've some sort of eidetic memory. Even Heisig which has good results for some people requires you to use flashcards and repeat information until your brain puts it into long term memory. (Heisig uses other methods to make the memorising process more effective from what I understand.)

Whatever way you get the repetitive stimulus you need it to make long term memories. Then there's a step from just having a memory to being able to have instant automatic access to use that knowledge.

I don't think there are any cheap fixes. It'll require time and effort and a bit of dedication.

"The method recommended by experts is to be born a Japanese baby and raised by a Japanese family, in Japan."
-- Dave Barry Does Japan

[JohnCBriggs]

Personally, I have tried various methods to learning Kanji. Currently I am using a book called "Let's Learn Kanji". This book focuses on learning radicals.
I have, in the past, spend a lot of time trying to memorize stroke order, writing, on and kun readings, in isolation. I am now starting to doubt the effectiveness of this. I am starting to think that it makes more sense to memorize words that use the kanji that you are studying along with the kanji.
This has many benefits. First, you get to see how the kanji is used in practice. You can get a sense for the kanji that might not be obvious from the English "meaning". Secondly, you can connect the Kanji to words that you might already know. I think this connection is a very powerful learning tool. Thirdly, when studying words using a certain kanji, other kanji will be used and that helps reinforce the learning of the other kanji.
One fustration that I have in doing this is that often the words chosen for this type of learning are too advanced for me. However, Tuttle makes some JLPT 3/4 flashcards that have kanji specific words that seem appropriate level for the student learning that kanji. Also, you always have to learn more vocabulary anyway, so why not learn it while relating it to the Kanji.
Perhaps someone else can comment on the usefulness (or lack or usefulness) in exhaustive practice in writing isolated Kanji. Personally, I am starting to doubt the value of writing (although I enjoy it). I think recongnizing kanji is more important (from a practical standpoint) than knowing how to write it. Also, I find that sometimes I cannot recognize kanji that I know I can write. There are like two paths in my brain
English meaning --->writing
seeing --> English meaning
It surprises me, but knowing one path doesn't always help me with the other. I don't know if other people have had the same experience. But in any case, I think it is more important for me to be able to see the kanji and know what it means than it is to be able to write it. But as I said, I do enjoy writing.
ジョン

[tiroth2]

John,

I think the different paths do reinforce each other, but for me they are definitely distinct: reading vs. writing and passive understanding vs. active construction. You can be great in one and terrible in the other...but I think if you learn both at once you do get some benefit.

[JohnCBriggs]

tiroth2さん,
Thanks for the reply. I think reading and writing kanji are separate skills. I have never really seen a systematic educational guide for learning the different skills with the right balance, e.g. 75% reading, 25% writing. Most books are simply, here is a kanji, write it 20 times and then you are done, e.g."Guide to Writing Kanji" by Spahn. Other books are reference only, e.g. Henshall. Still others like "Let's Learn Kanji" have some good exercises.
1) break down these kanji to radicals
2) In this sentence, put in the right hiragana for the kanji
3) In this sentence, put the right kanji for the hiragana.
I find these to be important and wish that I had more of this type of materials. Flashcards (either physical or software) are nice, but there needs to be other types of activities in the learning process.
ジョン

[WCR91]

I have never really seen a systematic educational guide for learning the different skills with the right balance, e.g. 75% reading, 25% writing.

True enough. But with enough emphasis on writing, won't the reading handle itself in many cases? Because remembering a kanji and writing it is much more difficult than looking at one and recognizing. Sure, when you get into readings and things, it becomes a bit more complex, but visual recognition comes quickly [or at least it does for me.]

That's my two cents worth.

[tiroth2]

WCR91,

Probably. It's a tradeoff though...you could probably learn to read 3-4x as many kanji in the time that it takes to really learn to write solidly.

For instance, it's not enough to just learn the kanji in a vaccuum if you really want to know writing cold...you need to do a LOT of writing to learn the proper okurigana usage, disambiguate confusing compounds (噴火? or 墳火?), etc.

Where you strike the balance depends on your goals. If you are looking to pass the JLPT and/or most of your writing is in a word processor, it's better to emphasize reading. This will inevitably lead to weakness in writing, but it might enable you to pass a given level 6 months - 1 year sooner. Then, you can switch and concentrate more on writing.

If you are living in Japan it might be better to concentrate on listening/speaking since there is a greater immediate benefit, or writing if you are already relatively fluent and are more interested in being able to fill out forms than read novels. It all depends on what's most important to you.

[JohnCBriggs]

tiroth2さん,
Very well said.
You also get a gold star for using "disambiguate" in a sentence.

WCR21さん,
I think what surprises me is that learning to write does not prepare me for reading very well. Perhaps other people will have other experiences. But I think tiroth2さん makes some excellent points.
Because I like writing, I find that I spend more time than I should doing that. Then I don't spend enough time on reading and other things.
In the JLPT writing is not needed.
じゃ　また
ジョン

[sukoruduwan]

tiroth2さん,

I think what surprises me is that learning to write does not prepare me for reading very well. Perhaps other people will have other experiences. But I think tiroth2さん makes some excellent points.

This makes sense to me. When it comes to learning to write a kanji, really all you are learning is the proper way to reproduce a figure. If you are particularly focused on reproducing the figure, it would be easy to neither gain the meaning nor any of the readings. I can think of a few different approaches to make sure you're making the most of your writing practice. When you are first starting to learn how to write a kanji, you are going to undoubtedly need an example. Every time you see that example, make an effort to remember the meaning, or main readings. If you can't remember, look it up. Second, as you are writing the kanji, tell yourself "This is the kanji for ....". Don't let yourself get a tunnelvision-focus on the shape, keeping in mind the idea you are expressing. Third, in addition to writing from an example, practice writing based off of the meaning. (An approach taken by Heisig). You're going to have to be able to do this, in order to express yourself anyway.

Anyway... those are my thought from a strictly academic/theoretical, non-experiential perspective.

[Michelle]

From my experience, it seems that students focus a good amount on the mechanics of writing at first (as was said earlier--how to write the radicals, use proper stroke order, etc.), but gradually, more and more class time becomes devoted to reading, conversation, and grammar.

Especially when studying for levels 2 & 1 of the JLPT, students are actually encouraged to improve their skimming skills, which involve grasping the basic meaning of a sentence or paragraph by just looking at the kanji but not really taking the time to process each individual character compound or grammar point. This, of course, is good for reading skills, but is downright lousy for improving writing ability. I know that I, for one, began to forget previously-known sentence patterns and how to write relatively simple kanji just because practicing how to understanding meaning at first glance doesn't emphasize these points at all.

[Psy]

First let me say that this has turned out to be a great discussion. We've seen a lot of different methods, a discussion of their pros and cons, and perspectives from all around. Anyone first approaching kanji could gain a lot by reading this thread. I've largely stated my opinions already, but there are a couple of things I have to add/comment upon:

"know it when you see it"
Isn't that how reading works? You have the largest working vocabulary in your reading ability. (regardless of language)
There are English words I can read and understand but wouldn't be able to spell properly without a spellchecker. And there are alll sorts of words I can read but don't use in writing or speaking.

I suppose it'd be wonderful to have complete access to everything but in practice it just doesn't work that way.

I do have a small argument here. While I agree that, in the end, one will associate the shape of a given kanji with a word just as one does with that of any other language, I believe that the relative complexity of Chinese versus Roman letterforms is an important issue during the learning process. Native English speakers are accustomed to 26 simple letters (with only a few variations: capital, cursive, etc.), and practiced readers do not normally need to pay attention to the finer details. With kanji, however, if special attention isn't paid to the writing of the more intricate/similar-looking kanji, as more and more build up in long-term memory, such characters as 水氷永泳, 習皆, 何可司河同, and more complicated messes of strokes like in 儀機業僕撲伐代運連帥師, distinctions can become quite vague. This is especially true when dealing with smaller font sizes. Thorough my experience, I found learning to write the kanji as I studied a great aid in making such distinctions. Everyone is different, though.

Whatever way you get the repetitive stimulus you need it to make long term memories. Then there's a step from just having a memory to being able to have instant automatic access to use that knowledge.

I don't think there are any cheap fixes. It'll require time and effort and a bit of dedication.

I'm 100% on this one.

I have, in the past, spend a lot of time trying to memorize stroke order, writing, on and kun readings, in isolation. I am now starting to doubt the effectiveness of this. I am starting to think that it makes more sense to memorize words that use the kanji that you are studying along with the kanji.

There have been a number of follow-up posts on this and they make some great points, so I won't repeat them. What I haven't seen mentioned is that while learning kanji through vocabulary study is a great supplement, it does not replace a kanji dictionary to learn the characters themselves. Nuances, readings and usages can be lost by relying only on new vocabulary.

There are like two paths in my brain
English meaning --->writing
seeing --> English meaning
It surprises me, but knowing one path doesn't always help me with the other.

Surprises me too! When I first learned kana, I only went for visual recognition. Some months later I could read fairly well, but couldn't draw the shapes straight from memory. When I did decide to learn how to write, I found my reading ability improved drastically.

WCR91,
If you are living in Japan it might be better to concentrate on listening/speaking since there is a greater immediate benefit, or writing if you are already relatively fluent and are more interested in being able to fill out forms than read novels. It all depends on what's most important to you.

I'll argue that, in the study of foreign languages, listening/speaking is always more important than reading/writing. The drawback is that not all learners have easy access to native speakers, so the study is taken where it can be taken.

From my experience, it seems that students focus a good amount on the mechanics of writing at first (as was said earlier--how to write the radicals, use proper stroke order, etc.), but gradually, more and more class time becomes devoted to reading, conversation, and grammar.

Another good point. From my own experience, I found that after I'd learned the writings of around 1,000 characters, the radicals and stroke-order rules had become familiar enough to unlock the writings, at first sight, of the majority of those yet-to-be-learned.

Again, there's some great stuff happening here. Though I hold no real position or authority on this forum, all I can say is thanks!