Can anyone check/correct my Japanese please?

[arixion7914]

you could also use "tame ni", although I would disagree with her and say use "-tai tame ni" instead of "-(r)u tame ni".

You'd be wrong to disagree because this would change the OP's intended meaning.

The first means "Because I had to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". The second means "Because I wanted to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". Both express purpose, but different kinds of purposes.

...

I am interested in Japanese conversation, so that fine distinction between purpose and cause isn/t necessary.

The 'unnecessary fine distinction' between cause and purpose is what explains the change in meaning above and the difference between your two (inaccurately translated) sentences.

The difference is particularly important with ために, since it's a neutral expression when used for purpose, but formal when used to express (uncontrollable) cause. から and ので are used much more frequently to express (general) cause. This is probably something a person only interested in conversation should be aware of.

You really shouldn't try to argue with me on (2), unless you have studied Chinese before. I am a native Mandarin Chinese speaker, and studied Chinese for 10 years.

I think knowledge of Japanese carries a bit more weight here, and cheeseandbeans2131 and toonygal5459 gave good demonstrations of that in their original posts. If you think hontou ni de is acceptable Japanese, then I'd leave it in their capable hands.

Javizy,

(1) Yes, it would change the nuance a little, but the main idea is still there. I think I should make clear something: I am not trying to reject grammar rules. I accept them, only I don't think that they are necessarily that restrictive. So I accept the idea that "-ru tame ni" expresses purpose; I just don't think that it is the only way to express purpose, especially when that purpose is something personal.

(2) I guess you are leaving tgal and cnb21 to correct my Japanese??

(3) kisama no baka datta tame ni , watashi ga waru yo! How's that for "uncontrollable formality"? (Don't get mad by the way, it's just a joke.) I think expressing purpose is already non-neutral in terms of stressing the seriousness of something; the closest to volitional mood without being volitional directly.

(4) Right. Silly me, forgot punctuation: "hontou ni! de...". (English translation: "Really, man ...") Incidentally, "really, man..." is not grammatical English either, not according to the Guide to Queen's English anyway.

Does "hontoni de" look more grammatical to you? By the way, is it right to say that the copula "de aru", "de", "deshita", "desu", "datta" or "darou" (I know that there are more forms) can be included at the end of any Japanese sentence to indicate a state-of-being? If that rule is right, then there is no reason why "hontou ni de" or "hontou ni da" or "hontou ni datta" is necessarily incorrect, except that it happens to be not present in your grammar book. (It is present in several movies and anime though.) And my sentence on cooking was wrong because of this reason, not because it isn't a "conjugation" found in your grammar book. (I think that the term "conjugation" is misleading, anyway.) So, re-rendered, "tsukunai dattara naranai no desu, daidokoro e ikimasu". Now I don't think Jessi-sensei - who sounds like a native speaker - should have any problems with the sentence.

Regards,
Raphael

P.S.: I do mean it when I say I have no issue with the grammar rule that you (or tgal or cnb21) present. What I have issue with is how you explain the origin of the grammar rule. Japanese grammar did not arise out of an Emperor wishing to create an exotic language for xigaijin (Western foreigners - first word in Chinese pron.) to study.

[j_bertoni2279]

By the way, is it right to say that the copula "de aru", "de", "deshita", "desu", "datta" or "darou" (I know that there are more forms) can be included at the end of any Japanese sentence to indicate a state-of-being?

Not quite. You can add "no da" to the end of most sentences, and "da" will work in many forms in this pattern. "darou" and "desyou" can be added to many forms to indicate a bit of doubt, or to soften the tone.

"tsukunai dattara naranai no desu, daidokoro e ikimasu"

This form is still wrong, and though someone might be able to decrypt it, I wouldn't count on that, and I wouldn't want my Japanese to sounds like that, either. It's "tukuranai" for the negative of "tukuru", although "tukuranakereba" or its contraction is what's needed.

[arixion7914]

By the way, is it right to say that the copula "de aru", "de", "deshita", "desu", "datta" or "darou" (I know that there are more forms) can be included at the end of any Japanese sentence to indicate a state-of-being?

Not quite. You can add "no da" to the end of most sentences, and "da" will work in many forms in this pattern. "darou" and "desyou" can be added to many forms to indicate a bit of doubt, or to soften the tone.

"tsukunai dattara naranai no desu, daidokoro e ikimasu"

This form is still wrong, and though someone might be able to decrypt it, I wouldn't count on that, and I wouldn't want my Japanese to sounds like that, either. It's "tukuranai" for the negative of "tukuru", although "tukuranakereba" or its contraction is what's needed.

j_bertoni,

(1) On what you said, is "desyou" the same as "deshoo"? And by the way, you didn't actually answer the question. I didn't ask about a particular pattern. I asked about a general case. Perhaps I should illustrate: say, "makaato no ikimashite iru desu". (not "no desu".)

(2) Fine, "tsukuranai dattara naranai no desu, daidokoro e ikimasu" then.

[j_bertoni2279]

"desyou" and "deshou" are the same. "deshoo" seems a bit weird, but there's many ways of transliterating Japanese.

"iru desu" is not correct. "iru no desu" or " iru n desu" would work, often as a form of emphasis or explanation.

"tsukuranai dattara naranai no desu, daidokoro e ikimasu"

It still makes no sense. "dattara" is a form of the copula, and can't follow a verbal. Something like,

"Tsukuranakereba naranai no de, ..." is more like what you'd need.

[arixion7914]

"desyou" and "deshou" are the same. "deshoo" seems a bit weird, but there's many ways of transliterating Japanese.

"iru desu" is not correct. "iru no desu" or " iru n desu" would work, often as a form of emphasis or explanation.

"tsukuranai dattara naranai no desu, daidokoro e ikimasu"

It still makes no sense. "dattara" is a form of the copula, and can't follow a verbal. Something like,

"Tsukuranakereba naranai no de, ..." is more like what you'd need.

Interesting ...

By the way, the verb was "ikimashite iru", not "iru". (polite imperfective of "iku")

[j_bertoni2279]

It'd be "itte iru" in almost any situation. It's also more of a perfective sense of the verb, since it implies that the person is gone. "itte iru" doesn't mean someone is in the process of going. "tabete iru" means someone is eating, but "itte iru" means someone is gone.

[Javizy]

I think I should make clear something: I am not trying to reject grammar rules.

No, you're not rejecting them; you just don't understand them.

I guess you are leaving tgal and cnb21 to correct my Japanese??

I doubt they have that much time on their hands.

kisama no baka datta tame ni , watashi ga waru yo! How's that for "uncontrollable formality"? (Don't get mad by the way, it's just a joke.)

It's a joke in terms of how bad the Japanese is.

Right. Silly me, forgot punctuation: "hontou ni! de...". (English translation: "Really, man ...") Incidentally, "really, man..." is not grammatical English either, not according to the Guide to Queen's English anyway.

No, it doesn't translate to 'really, man' because it's complete nonsense.

P.S.: I do mean it when I say I have no issue with the grammar rule that you (or tgal or cnb21) present. What I have issue with is how you explain the origin of the grammar rule. Japanese grammar did not arise out of an Emperor wishing to create an exotic language for xigaijin (Western foreigners - first word in Chinese pron.) to study.

Nobody is explaining the origin of anything. The only advantage being Chinese would give you is knowledge of kanji, which you don't even seem to know the basics of. You're not an expert, or even proficient, in any aspect of Japanese, so stop trying to explain things to people who are. You have to learn to use the language just like the "gaijin" you consider yourself racially superior to, so why not start by reading the advice in this thread?

[arixion7914]

I think I should make clear something: I am not trying to reject grammar rules.

No, you're not rejecting them; you just don't understand them.

I guess you are leaving tgal and cnb21 to correct my Japanese??

I doubt they have that much time on their hands.

kisama no baka datta tame ni , watashi ga waru yo! How's that for "uncontrollable formality"? (Don't get mad by the way, it's just a joke.)

It's a joke in terms of how bad the Japanese is.

Right. Silly me, forgot punctuation: "hontou ni! de...". (English translation: "Really, man ...") Incidentally, "really, man..." is not grammatical English either, not according to the Guide to Queen's English anyway.

No, it doesn't translate to 'really, man' because it's complete nonsense.

P.S.: I do mean it when I say I have no issue with the grammar rule that you (or tgal or cnb21) present. What I have issue with is how you explain the origin of the grammar rule. Japanese grammar did not arise out of an Emperor wishing to create an exotic language for xigaijin (Western foreigners - first word in Chinese pron.) to study.

Nobody is explaining the origin of anything. The only advantage being Chinese would give you is knowledge of kanji, which you don't even seem to know the basics of. You're not an expert, or even proficient, in any aspect of Japanese, so stop trying to explain things to people who are. You have to learn to use the language just like the "gaijin" you consider yourself racially superior to, so why not start by reading the advice in this thread?

Javizy,

At least I am Asian (and really Asian):

(1) You think I don't understand your explanation? Well, I do. It's only that unlike you, who think that grammar rules show the only forms of expression, I think that they show certain available forms of expression. Just by the way, I was listening to two Japanese speaking just now - in real life, and noticed how often they ended sentences in "de", which I am certain goes against the rules in your grammar book. Oh yes, and "baka de" is one of the phrases I overheard. So I guess they don't know their own language?

(2) Sigh ... let me guess: "datta" is not permitted to come before "tame ni"?

(3) Well, that's their call, not mine or yours to make.

(4) Even with the punctuation?

hontou ni tasukete dekinai! itta mono mo nai! Joke mo nai! Kangaete iru koto wa, hon no igai de ikimasen deshita n ka? konna wa shimatanatai dekinai zen zai! Mashite ii nai! Sate, [This is wrong grammar] to ie ne ze!

(5) Oh now, that's funny. And what are the "basics" of kanji that I don't know? Why don't you be a little more specific before making baseless accusations? FYI, I do know how to write kanji; I just have no idea what the Japanese pronunciation is, just like you might be able to write German, but not know how to read German words.

I may not have JLPT (fill-in-what-level-you-have-here), but (a) I do know my Chinese (native speaker, yeah?) and (b) I listen to Japanese music, watch Japanese anime, and eavesdrop on Japanese conversations, so unless all these are ungrammatical, I do have some proficiency in Japanese. Of course, if I had perfect Japanese, I wouldn't be here.

wrt my alleged racism, that statement was hardly racist; all it was doing was reminding you that language is created for communication, not to serve as a guinea pig for a set of arbitrarily chosen grammar-rules. Speech comes before writing, so grammar rules of written language are based on grammar rules for spoken language.

I am gravely disappointed that what I intended as a mutual exploration on the relationship between Chinese and Japanese has degraded into what is almost a mudslinging match. (It's almost because you are the only one doing the mudslinging here as yet.)

I don't mind grammatical dogmatism if you can justify it, but all you have done is describe it so far.

Sadly,
Raphael

[Javizy]

I am gravely disappointed that what I intended as a mutual exploration on the relationship between Chinese and Japanese has degraded into what is almost a mudslinging match. (It's almost because you are the only one doing the mudslinging here as yet.)

This derailment is thanks to you condescendingly trying to correct perfectly good posts with your inaccurate and unnecessary advice. You were asking for beginner textbooks in another thread, and now you're stubbornly arguing with people studying for N1. Your Japanese is never going to improve if you assume you know everything and refuse to accept corrections.

I'll give you one tip: your confusion with で coming at the end of clauses could be because you're listening to kansai dialect. で can be used as gobi with a similar meaning to よ. 「ほんまやで」 means 「ほんとうだよ」, for example.

[j_bertoni2279]

Well, it'd be nice if this thread could be more civil, but arixion, you are trying people's patience. Your Japanese is very poor, and I personally don't think being Asian is any advantage in learning Japanese. I know lots of nisei and sansei who didn't or don't know a word of Japanese, and I've been in classes with them, and not been awed, to say the least. And knowing some Chinese, I don't see it as a benefit in learning Japanese, other than knowing how to draw the characters and usually have some sense of their connotation.

"de" can come at the end of many sentences, especially, apparently, in Kansai dialect (which I didn't know). "baka de" might make a lot of sense, in some contexts. That doesn't mean it works in all cases. I can make a situation in which "hontou ni! de..." might make some sense, perhaps meaning something like, "Is that so! Well, then...". That doesn't mean your usage made any sense.

[arixion7914]

I am gravely disappointed that what I intended as a mutual exploration on the relationship between Chinese and Japanese has degraded into what is almost a mudslinging match. (It's almost because you are the only one doing the mudslinging here as yet.)

This derailment is thanks to you condescendingly trying to correct perfectly good posts with your inaccurate and unnecessary advice. You were asking for beginner textbooks in another thread, and now you're stubbornly arguing with people studying for N1. Your Japanese is never going to improve if you assume you know everything and refuse to accept corrections.

I'll give you one tip: your confusion with で coming at the end of clauses could be because you're listening to kansai dialect. で can be used as gobi with a similar meaning to よ. 「ほんまやで」 means 「ほんとうだよ」, for example.

Javizy,

(1) I seriously don't understand what you are saying. All I intended to do was add an additional perspective. As I said, I wasn't saying that anybody was wrong. Remember, I come here from a conversational perspective, not an intent to pass any Japanese Proficiency Test. I am interested in finding out the variety of linguistic expressions useable in a particular situation, not in memorizing a mechanical list of grammatical structures. I am a philosophy, not a Linguistics, student.

I am willing to accept corrections, but (a) only correct ones and (b) only on Japanese. I thought you were somewhat hitting below the belt when you tried to derogate my Chinese standards. (wakatta ii desu ka?) And if I am really wrong, I want to know why I am wrong e.g. am I too rude? Is there some hidden context which I missed out? Not simply, "oh, my N1-level Japanese textbook doesn't say so". Your teextbook - in fact, all textbooks of any language - only contains a subset of grammatical structures; even JLPT L4 doesn't cover all bases, so to speak.

Plus, it is interesting that you assume that the poster here is trying to learn N1-Jap when he didn't say so. If your earlier "correction" of my Japanese had been like that, we wouldn't be arguing with each other. So desu ne.

(2) Good, now that is more like it. Thanks!

(aft) Let's start again now ...

Let's say someone asks you (in Japanese), " Why are you here at JapanesePod101.com?" ("nan o suru wa Japanisupodu-hi-rei-hi-dotokomu koko ni (aru) desu ka?"), what are the various answers to this question in English, and what are the Japanese versions of each of these possible answers (with Romaji please)?

[Javizy]

Maybe I was a little blunt, but you have to appreciate the nature of your own tone as well.

Remember, I come here from a conversational perspective, not an intent to pass any Japanese Proficiency Test. I am interested in finding out the variety of linguistic expressions useable in a particular situation, not in memorizing a mechanical list of grammatical structures.

For the record, I haven't passed any JLPT tests or even taken one, my grammar books are pretty dusty, and I know plenty of conversational Japanese. At the moment, I'm happy just learning new words with Anki, chatting on Skype, reading news and manga, watching 古畑 etc.

"oh, my N1-level Japanese textbook doesn't say so". Your teextbook - in fact, all textbooks of any language - only contains a subset of grammatical structures; even JLPT L4 doesn't cover all bases, so to speak.

It's not always possible to prescribe what expression should be used in a given situation, otherwise life would be a bit monotonous. It is possible to prescribe how to use the expressions themselves though. Whether or not you choose to focus your studies around this is a topic for another thread.

Let's say someone asks you (in Japanese), " Why are you here at JapanesePod101.com?" ("nan o suru wa Japanisupodu-hi-rei-hi-dotokomu koko ni (aru) desu ka?"), what are the various answers to this question in English, and what are the Japanese versions of each of these possible answers (with Romaji please)?

The question should be something like 「なんでここにいますか？」「なんでここにきていますか？」. The answer depends on the person. How about these?

「にほんごをべんきょうしたいからです」
"Because I want to learn Japanese"
「ぶんぽうをおしえてもらいたいからです」
"Because I want help with grammar"
「姑に日本語を習えっていつも言われてるから...」
"Because my mother-in-law is always telling me to learn Japanese..."
「ピーターさんがセクシーすぎるからね、うふ」
"Because Peter is just too sexy".

[arixion7914]

Well, it'd be nice if this thread could be more civil, but arixion, you are trying people's patience. Your Japanese is very poor, and I personally don't think being Asian is any advantage in learning Japanese. I know lots of nisei and sansei who didn't or don't know a word of Japanese, and I've been in classes with them, and not been awed, to say the least. And knowing some Chinese, I don't see it as a benefit in learning Japanese, other than knowing how to draw the characters and usually have some sense of their connotation.

"de" can come at the end of many sentences, especially, apparently, in Kansai dialect (which I didn't know). "baka de" might make a lot of sense, in some contexts. That doesn't mean it works in all cases. I can make a situation in which "hontou ni! de..." might make some sense, perhaps meaning something like, "Is that so! Well, then...". That doesn't mean your usage made any sense.

j_bertoni,

(1) That is exactly what I am puzzled over. My first post in this thread was literally supposed to be a passing comment, not an impromptu debate, much less an argument. I was PERFECTLY FINE with people using "-ru tame ni" to express purpose, or "-nakereba naranai" to express necessity. In fact, I was happy for the refresher; yes, I read it all before. All I was saying was, "it is perfectly grammatical to use either "-ru tame ni" or "-tai tame ni" as an answer to a "why" question. (Remember, I am thinking in terms of conversation.) But it might just be a little more polite to say the latter, instead of the former. And Japanese has a large focus on politeness, yeah?" I WAS NOT SAYING THAT "-ru tame ni" WAS WRONG. ditto for "-nakereba naranai"; it appears that my comments on double negatives got misinterpreted.

As for Chinese versus Japanese, perhaps I should have said that the meta-grammar of both languages are the same. watashi no dai baka hodo nai koto wa chikokugo to nihongo mono no tsubete chiganai koto mo kureta omoe deshyo! uso nai jitsu wa! Hiragan and katakana were formed from Kanji after all, weren't they? All I was suggesting that Japanese should perhaps be seen more in terms of Chinese ciyu that it was derived from, rather than European languages with all their various conjugations. That is to say, to be techinical, Japanese morphetic structure might be far closer to Chinese than it is to English, so "endings" like "i", "ita", "-ku" "na" and so on, should be seen as distinctive morphemes rather than conjugations, which are only part of a word.

(2) Hmm ... "da" is the contraction of "de aru", and "de" is apparently the continuative form of "da". I think "baka da" is grammatical, isn't it? If it is, then "baka de" should also be grammatical, because it is only changing the form of the copula kashira? I guessed out this use by trying to figure out the meaning of the sentence "de ne ze!" which I heard at the end of the anime Fairy Tail. Context is "a girl is trying trying to sleep, and a group of boys are making alot of noise". Do you have any other interpretations? If so, please share!

[arixion7914]

Maybe I was a little blunt, but you have to appreciate the nature of your own tone as well.

Remember, I come here from a conversational perspective, not an intent to pass any Japanese Proficiency Test. I am interested in finding out the variety of linguistic expressions useable in a particular situation, not in memorizing a mechanical list of grammatical structures.

For the record, I haven't passed any JLPT tests or even taken one, my grammar books are pretty dusty, and I know plenty of conversational Japanese. At the moment, I'm happy just learning new words with Anki, chatting on Skype, reading news and manga, watching 古畑 etc.

"oh, my N1-level Japanese textbook doesn't say so". Your teextbook - in fact, all textbooks of any language - only contains a subset of grammatical structures; even JLPT L4 doesn't cover all bases, so to speak.

It's not always possible to prescribe what expression should be used in a given situation, otherwise life would be a bit monotonous. It is possible to prescribe how to use the expressions themselves though. Whether or not you choose to focus your studies around this is a topic for another thread.

Let's say someone asks you (in Japanese), " Why are you here at JapanesePod101.com?" ("nan o suru wa Japanisupodu-hi-rei-hi-dotokomu koko ni (aru) desu ka?"), what are the various answers to this question in English, and what are the Japanese versions of each of these possible answers (with Romaji please)?

The question should be something like 「なんでここにいますか？」「なんでここにきていますか？」. The answer depends on the person. How about these?

「にほんごをべんきょうしたいからです」
"Because I want to learn Japanese"
「ぶんぽうをおしえてもらいたいからです」
"Because I want help with grammar"
「姑に日本語を習えっていつも言われてるから...」
"Because my mother-in-law is always telling me to learn Japanese..."
「ピーターさんがセクシーすぎるからね、うふ」
"Because Peter is just too sexy".

Javizy,

(1) My tone was a response to incurred frustration. Unless you are saying that my first post sounds rude to an average Westerner?

(2) Well, you referred to N-level Jap, so I thought you were studying Japanese formally. I write my post in fully conversational language, so if you know lots of it, you should be able to understand what I am saying. Although my vocabulary list is kinda small (only around 200 words so far, and most are nouns) so I tend to use substitutions whenever I don't know the exact words.

On the Q&A, the question is "Why are you here at JapanesePod101.com?" "JapanesePod101.com" is the logical topic of the sentence, but you omitted it in your translation. And for the asnwers, think more in terms of different styles of answering. For instance, "the reason is ..", "Oh, that, to ... " and so on. Your responses lack ... life. For instance, "because My mother-in-law is always telling me to study japanese"; That sounds like a polished answer at a job-interview, not something for your mates. Perhaps, more expressively, "it's all my mother-in-law's fault; that old fool is always bugging me :Learn japanese." ("ku-san datte minna; mainichi mainichi ni pera-pera shita [benkyou sure nihongo o!] anna baka hitori datto") with all the necessary gesticulations. It also sounds like anime/manga/movie language much more, yo?

[j_bertoni2279]

I don't know what you mean by "metagrammar", but there's no particular similarity between Chinese and Japanese grammar. If you want to recast it as Chinese, you can try, but it still has conjugations in any practical sense. The word "morpheme" apply in the way you're trying to use it, because the term is used for parts of English words, as well, including the conjugations.