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Approach to learning Kanji

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WCR91
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Approach to learning Kanji

Postby WCR91 » January 12th, 2007 6:22 pm

Hello, everyone. I have a question. What's the best approach to learning kanji? As I have already learned the syllabaries (hiragana and katakana), I am normally just copying kanji a hundred times or so on paper. Is there a certain order in which I should learn kanji (i.e. starting with JLPT level 4 kanji, then working down to level 3 and so on)?

Also, I have another question about the use of the On and Kun readings.

On readings are used with another kanji, and kun readings are used with hiragana following the one kanji, right?

I'm a bit unsure on this part.

Any help will be appreciated.
Arigatou.

Psy
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Postby Psy » January 12th, 2007 9:28 pm

Regarding readings: It's a messy situation-- then again, written Japanese is really messy to begin with. The general rule is that an on'yomi will be used with compound words (words containing more than one kanji), and that a kun'yomi will be used with standalone kanji, often with okurigana (kana that appear before or after a kanji but are still part of the same word. for example the つ in 一つ). Historically speaking, however, there's a lot of Chinese vocabulary in Japanese, and many of the words using on'yomi are actually old Chinese words brutalized to go along with Japanese phonetics. (On that note, until recently I had no idea that 可愛い kawaii came from the Chinese 可愛 ke3 ai4. Listen for yourself!)

Regarding learning methods: Technically, any method will work (to an extent) so long as it's executed consistently and diligently. However, there are easier ways and harder ways, each with advantages and disadvantages. I'll run through the main ones here:

-Traditional grade-by-grade, Japanese-style
-Visual Recognition, graded order
-Learn by Readings
-Heisig
-Grouped by Meaning

Traditional Style
This is the method you're talking about. Take them in a graded order, 1st to 6th, then progress on remainder of the general-use set (常用漢字). Write them repeatedly and do your best to remember the readings. This is effective to a point, but learning by rote is extremely tedious and time consuming. Since it is by rote, the other danger is "fazing out" and not really paying attention to the material you're trying to memorize. The big advantage is you'll learn to write useful characters, and be able to put them to use right away. However, you'll soon find there are too many rare and obscure readings to handle for certain characters.

The Advantages
  • You'll learn useful characters right away
  • You'll learn readings and writings
  • The writings will become reflex quite rapidly
The Disadvantages
  • You're working with complex, meaningless shapes
  • It's easy to "faze out"
  • It takes a very long time
  • Too many readings for certain kanji.

Visual Recognition
I believe this is how a lot of students start out, and it is a recipe for disaster. People will go through characters and learn to recognize them visually for their meanings, and pick up the readings for words familiar to them. While this is certainly the fastest way to learn to recognize characters, it comes with some major downfalls. As with all methods lacking writing practice, you'll often not be able to remember a character unless you see it printed (infamous "know it when you see it" syndrome), and often confuse characters that look similar to one another.

The Advantages
  • The fastest way short-term way to learn.
  • Immediate application to familiar words.
The Disadvantages
  • Know-it-when-you-see-it syndrome.
  • Easily confuse similar characters.
  • Forgotten quickly.

Reading Recognition
This is another method I've heard people use a lot, wherein students will pick up the readings & writings of any and all new words they learn, and practice them to mastery in a way similar to the Traditional method. Immediate application and written proficiency are major pluses, but there are also big limitations. For one, as a student, you'll only learn the more common kanji (some of the general-use set are quite uncommon), and never really approach reading publications. Secondly, you'll only associate the meaning of the character with particular known word, creating a problem when encountering nuances such as those in 替える/代える, 手伝う/助ける, etc. Additionally, many kanji have multiple meanings.

The Advantages
  • Faster than the Traditional Method
  • 100% applicable to what you know.
  • Written proficiency.
The Disadvantages
  • Mainly limited to the more common kanji.
  • Not learning the nuances of individual kanji.
  • You'll reach fluency before being able to read.

Heisig
As a success story (and subsequent fan) of the Heisig method, I'm quick to endorse it, however it isn't without its own limitations. After the end of a difficult study, you won't be able to read a phonetic word of Japanese, nor will you be able to ferret out the meanings of the more difficult compound words. The method is based purely in teaching the recognition, meaning, and writing of the kanji, and it utilizes many proven mnemonic techniques to achieve it. The advantage is just that: by the end of it, you will recognize, be able to write from memory, and know the meanings of more than 2,000 kanji, as well as have the foundation to learn new characters faster than you might believe. It doesn't work for everybody, however-- from my understanding mainly skeptics without enough patience, along with those others who abandon it 500 characters in because they were under the impression that this would somehow make the study of kanji "easy."

Still, seeing as I can now write stuff like and directly from memory (something many native Japanese cannot), and see an unknown character for 3 seconds and still be able to look it up 10 minutes later, I firmly believe the benefits outweigh the detriments. It takes time and patience, but it is all rewarded in the end.

The Advantages
  • Keywords often provided nuanced meanings.
  • Very high written proficiency.
  • Fast. With diligence 2,042 kanji can be completed in 3-6 months.
  • High long-term retention.
The Disadvantages
  • Tedious. Must be completed before real results happen.
  • It's still difficult.
  • You won't learn readings.
  • The books are bloody expensive.

Grouped by Meaning
This is something I'm fooling around with on my website, and as far as I know hasn't really been tried before. Since I don't know how well something like this will work, I can't really make a firm judgment either way. However, I do believe the grouping will be more effective for both memory and usage than the standard graded order.

The Advantages
  • Hey, it's free! :lol:


Whew. That took awhile! Didn't expect I'd be writing that much. At any rate, I hope those of you approaching kanji will find it helpful!

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Bueller_007
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Postby Bueller_007 » January 14th, 2007 6:00 am

Psy wrote:until recently I had no idea that 可愛い kawaii came from the Chinese 可愛 ke3 ai4.

かわいい doesn't come from Chinese. The kanji used for 可愛い are "ateji", characters with appropriate pronunciations (or meanings) applied after the fact, such as the famous examples 倶楽部 (クラブ) and 亜米利加 (アメリカ).

The etymology is as follows (forgive the archaic kana usage, such as the ほ in 顔. It was written ほ, but pronounced お):

顔(かほ)+映し(はゆし)=かほはゆし (face+dazzling)
Simplify that as:
かははゆし
Shorten that:
かはゆし
Remember that archaic は was sometimes pronounced わ even in cases other than particle usage. This word was written かはゆし, but is properly pronounced:
かわゆし
し is an archaic (predicative) adjective ending, so in modern Japanese, this is:
かわゆい
ゆ can become い for ease of pronunciation, as in the word 行く (ゆく->いく), so this becomes:
かわいい

They then "borrowed" the kanji for the word 可愛 ("keai", meaning "cute") from Chinese, and applied the kanji to the native Japanese word, in the same way that they "borrowed" the kanji for コーヒー from Chinese (珈琲), despite the fact that the readings don't jive completely.

From this, you get 可愛い, with the extra い remaining at the end to indicate it is an い adjective. So yeah, the kanji come from Chinese, but the word itself surely doesn't.

Psy
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Postby Psy » January 14th, 2007 8:51 am

Coolness. Thanks for the correction and the detail... archaic Japanese makes my head hurt. Do you have a URL to a site with information like that?

spinozza
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Postby spinozza » January 15th, 2007 12:22 am

Do you know where to find Hesig's book for a reasonable price?

seanolan
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Postby seanolan » January 15th, 2007 12:54 am

Heisig's book (Remembering the Kanji I) is about $30 US no matter where you buy it. You can try Amazon.com for a used copy, but good luck finding one for cheap. Are you in the US or elsewhere?

Incidentally, there IS a Remembering the Kanji II which deals specifically with his method of studying the readings of the kanji. However, it is totally separate from the first book, and really is not designed to be used alongside it. I think you are supposed to finish I and then go on to II, but I am not sure. One other advantage to Heisig is the large number of people who have used it - there are many web-sites out there with extra supplemental info for using the Heisig method.

Sean

WCR91
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Postby WCR91 » January 15th, 2007 1:14 am

Ah, thank you all so much. This is helpful. I live in an area where there's no one to help me with my japanese, so I depend on book and internet resources for my information. I'm definitely interested in the Heisig method, but I also really want to learn the readings. I don't mind doing something time-consuming, as long as it's effective. As a high school student, I have a lot of free time to dedicate to Japanese (ensuring dilligence). Thus, as crazy as it may sound, I'd like to learn all the kanji that I possibly can (all of them, if that's even feasible).

At any rate, I want to be able to read something like The Asahi Shimbun in Japanese. Possibly aloud.

Arigatou gozaimashita. Keep the suggestions coming.

Cody

spinozza
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Postby spinozza » January 15th, 2007 1:20 am

Where are you finding it for 30 bucks?

every online place I have checked says its out of stock.

Psy
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Postby Psy » January 15th, 2007 4:31 am

seanolan wrote:However, it is totally separate from the first book, and really is not designed to be used alongside it. I think you are supposed to finish I and then go on to II, but I am not sure.


You're mostly correct. RTK2, a follow-up to the first book, presents the on'yomi (there is no real logic for learning the kun'yomi) in a systematic way. While it's still easier with than without, it's also harder than the first book because it requires more brute memorization. RTK3 applies the methods of 1 and 2 to another (roughly) 1,000 kanji, bringing the total to 3,007. All of the books are becoming difficult to find, and are often very expensive from online second-hand sellers.


WCR91 wrote:I'm definitely interested in the Heisig method, but I also really want to learn the readings. I don't mind doing something time-consuming, as long as it's effective.

As you study more and more Japanese, you will begin to understand readings quite well. The difficulty of studying all of the standard readings is that many are uncommon, and that by the time you encounter them in print, you may well have forgotten them. You should of course do what works best for you, but in general I've found that studying words alongside readings works better than readings alone.


WCR91 wrote:Thus, as crazy as it may sound, I'd like to learn all the kanji that I possibly can (all of them, if that's even feasible).

It isn't. It's said that there are more than 50,000 characters recorded, however between Japan & China less than 10% of that is in common usage today. Knowing 6,000 is considered extremely high literacy in Japan, and knowledge of 8,000-10,000 is sufficient to read almost any Chinese text. For everyday life these numbers are overkill. If memory serves, statistics say that the average adult Japanese can recognize around 3,500 characters. Until you feel like reading novels, you can get by with far less.

WCR91 wrote:At any rate, I want to be able to read something like The Asahi Shimbun in Japanese. Possibly aloud.

There is a common misconception out there that says if you learn the jyouyou-kanji, you'll automatically be able to read a newspaper. The truth of the matter is that while you'll be able to recognize every kanji on the page, you will not nessicarily know what the words mean, how they're pronounced, or the underlying grammar of the language being used. I completed the jyouyou myself last year, and while I can in-general skim through newspaper articles and get meanings, I am still far from being able to read everything aloud.

Good luck with the study-- it's tedious and time consuming. Compared with the number of people who try learning Japanese, those who actually prevail and become proficient in the writing are a relative few.

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Postby Bueller_007 » January 15th, 2007 5:16 am

Psy wrote:Coolness. Thanks for the correction and the detail... archaic Japanese makes my head hurt. Do you have a URL to a site with information like that?

Yeah, I used to read this a bit.
http://gogen-allguide.com/
Forgive me if the かわいい thing doesn't match theirs, I didn't take it from there, but just from a regular dictionary.
http://tinyurl.com/y3x5fs

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Postby annie » January 15th, 2007 7:51 am

Psy wrote:Grouped by Meaning
This is something I'm fooling around with on my website, and as far as I know hasn't really been tried before. Since I don't know how well something like this will work, I can't really make a firm judgment either way. However, I do believe the grouping will be more effective for both memory and usage than the standard graded order.


That's how a lot of textbooks teach kanji at the beginning at least. It works well in tandem with learning vocabulary.

I've argued against learning the kanji by Japanese grade order for adults... briefly, not all of the kanji are all that useful (like bow, arrow, and filial piety)

I'm not really familiar with Heisig.
If you're not learning the readings then then it makes it rather difficult to type in Japanese, doesn't it? Which kind of kills any chance you have of texting with your japanese friends.

If most Japanese people can't write the kanji for mouse, then there's a decent chance you'll be misunderstood when you write it.

Psy
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Postby Psy » January 15th, 2007 8:22 am

Bueller_007 wrote:Yeah, I used to read this a bit.
http://gogen-allguide.com/
Forgive me if the かわいい thing doesn't match theirs, I didn't take it from there, but just from a regular dictionary.
http://tinyurl.com/y3x5fs

Thanks-- very interesting stuff!


annie wrote:I've argued against learning the kanji by Japanese grade order for adults... briefly, not all of the kanji are all that useful (like bow, arrow, and filial piety)

I'm not really familiar with Heisig.
If you're not learning the readings then then it makes it rather difficult to type in Japanese, doesn't it? Which kind of kills any chance you have of texting with your japanese friends.


Heisig is a double-edged sword like that. One could also argue that you wouldn't understand/be writing kanji whose vocabulary was unknown to you to begin with. Personally I've never really had a problem with it, but to each his own.

If most Japanese people can't write the kanji for mouse, then there's a decent chance you'll be misunderstood when you write it.


Not true. Japanese have the same know-it-when-you-see-it syndrome, aggravated a lot in modern years with the rise of word processors. Even if many can't write it, most everyone can surely read it.

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Postby Bueller_007 » January 16th, 2007 12:01 am

Psy wrote:Not true. Japanese have the same know-it-when-you-see-it syndrome, aggravated a lot in modern years with the rise of word processors. Even if many can't write it, most everyone can surely read it.

Except young people. They're useless with kanji.

I've done the classic foreigner parlor trick and drawn the kanji for "rose" (薔薇), and older people had no problems reading even that. But I showed a Japanese student the book I'm reading now, and she choked on a word in the very first sentence: 終焉 (しゅうえん, "demise"). No clue what it meant, and couldn't guess it from context.

For what it's worth, official Japanese 公用文 style discourages the use of non-Joyo, non-officially-approved name kanji, so when they write 終焉 in official documents, they write it as 終えん. So that's one kanji that's biting the dust right there.

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Postby Psy » January 16th, 2007 1:29 am

Bueller_007 wrote:Except young people. They're useless with kanji.


Is that right? I knew it was bad but didn't know it was that bad. Last year I read an article about a large percentage (something like 60%) of younger-generation Japanese being unable to draw something as simple as 鼻, but I had no idea the deficiency extended so far to recognition. You'd think the lifetime of total immersion would still keep natives a head above the advanced learner, but I guess this is only the case for those that actually read real books. It would seem my host-father's words about "kids, anime and manga" were more true than I'd realized.

Granted, kanji is a mess, but there's no excuse for such a <tatemae>literate</tatemae> society to be having this problem.

Thanks again for the info!

annie
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Postby annie » January 16th, 2007 5:53 am

[quote="Psy]Heisig is a double-edged sword like that. One could also argue that you wouldn't understand/be writing kanji whose vocabulary was unknown to you to begin with. [/quote]

okay, very true. again, I've never used the Heisig books and don't really understand how it works. i looked at it enough to realize that it would never work with my learning style. i don't think i quite understand what you mean by "you won't learn readings."

[quote="Psy] I had no idea the deficiency extended so far to recognition. You'd think the lifetime of total immersion would still keep natives a head above the advanced learner[/quote]

I'm reading a mystery book from the junior high school library that has 部屋 with furigana (along with several other words that I've known since my first year of studying Japanese). No idea what grade level it's written for-- anyone know if there's a way to find that out?

[/quote]

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